MKX Pulled Right, now it pulls LEFT!

[Geordi]

Union\'s....

If you don\'t believe that the work you produce is worth more, then you have a very low opinion of yourself, and the business world will love that. They can pay you dirt and you will just smile and take it. Maybe you \"work the system\" by not working as hard as you possibly could, but then again, that only helps justify the low pay. What I hear is jealousy that union people CAN be paid a fair wage for fair work, and that the union will help guarantee both limits on the hours worked for the worker, and output levels for the employer.

The tech industry is a tough nut for unionization, b/c the people are generally too young to understand the benefits of group negotiation while the industry is also FULL of middle managers and bean counters trying to lower the wage floor all the time.

 

[Eddie]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'po-po 5.0\']
Unions are great for their members, they\'re shit for everyone else.[/QUOTE]

Not quite. Unions have stringent production and certification requirements. Union workers have to do things right, no bullshit. For trades like plumbing, carpentry and electrical, unions serve the customers well with a standardized, high quality level of service, quality and production. I know I wouldn\'t want the electrical done incorrectly on my house. I know how to do all that, to the stringent Chicago code, but if I didn\'t you better believe I wouldn\'t hire some hack to do it. I have seen the shortcuts the fly by night contractors do and it\'s not pretty. This is your property, your investment, your safety and health we\'re dealing with here. I agree they\'re not the right answer for every industry.

 

[markedman90]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Bill89LSC\']I had to go through 5 years of school that was heavy on physics and math, mainly trig. plus on the job training. At a starting salary of $9.50 Then it was an 5 hour test for my Plumbing license. The schooling is paid for by the Contractors and supplied by the Union. If they didn\'t think they were getting a better trained and skilled Tradesman from it I don\'t think they would be willing to pay for the schooling or as you say pay our wages and benefits. Any Plumber with a license is welcome to join the Union and recieve training. The problem is most of the non Union Plumbers are also non licensed and therefore cannot legally do any work in this State. Especially work that requires permits and inspections. Therefore they mostly do sewer rodding and simple service work like replacing faucets and such. I\'ve been called to more than one construction site where a non licensed, non Union Plumbers were trying to fly under the radar but were caught by the local inspectors. If the work was up to code there would have been no problem. They would have been allowed to continue after getting the proper permits. The problem was the work was not even close to any Plumbing code, not to mention sub-standard materials and inferior carftsmanship. At this point it\'s a health and safety issue. Had they been capable of doing the work correctly they would have pulled the proper permits. The Developers and Contractors realized this along time ago. It\'s cheaper to have skilled, trained Craftsman do the work right the first time. You get what you pay for. I am trained to and have designed and installed Plumbing systems in everything from residential housing to 150 story skyscrapers, according to the Chicago Plumbing code, wich along with NYC is the toughest in the nation. The company I work for now does alot of work building car washes, restraunts, and gas stations all of wich have some SERIOUS plumbing. We do work for Burger King, Mc Donalds, and BP Amoco to name a few. I don\'t feel a bit guilty about my wages or benefits. I\'ve earned every bit of it. If CEO\'s of failing companies can still pull down millions in stock options and salary, I\'m glad I\'ve got a Union that makes sure I\'m fairly compensated for my skills an honest day\'s work. Plumbers protect the health of the nation. If the power go\'s out you\'ll grab a flashlight. If your Plumbing fails and your standing knee deep in water and shit don\'t call a Union Plumber. Get that dirt cheap non licensed, non Union Plumber. I dare You.
.[/QUOTE] There\'s a union hall ( I think) on 83 so. of North Av. that I go past once in a while that has an old station wagon with a big fiberglass rat attached to the roof, and big letters on the side \"rat patrol\" that I\'ve also seen it @ job sites. I don\'t know what trade they represent.
I fully agree with you as far as sewer / water service.
Want lead solder used on your pipes?? Not me.

 

[Eddie]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Bill89LSC\']Sounds like you need a Union![/QUOTE]

Yeah, union is a dirty word around here. Every few years they come around and try to unionise my workplace. Management obvoiusly has a dim view of this and anybody that so much as peeps a word about it will find their ass out on the street and blackballed for life.

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[Bill89LSC]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'po-po 5.0\']I had to go through 5 years of school too! My school, I guarantee, was even heavier on math, trig, physics, and engineering than yours was. I have a BS in Computer Science from a well respected engineering school. I don\'t even make $41/hr! You think you\'re getting a \"fair\" wage. I say you\'re getting overpaid. This is what unions do for their members. They use bullying tactics to get UNFAIR compensation/benefits for their members. Which obviously is great for their members. Nothing you\'ve said so far has convinced me that I\'m wrong. I\'ve said it before, I\'ll say it again:

Unions are great for their members, they\'re shit for everyone else.[/QUOTE]

Boo Hoo. I chose my profession and you chose yours. Take your degree and stick it up your ass. What makes you think your better and should earn more than me anyway. I could throw this computer out the window right now and my quality of life would not go down one bit! Most likely go up now that I think about it. Rip the Plumbing out of your house and see how your life will change. Who\'s worth more to the human race now you whiny little bitch!

 

[Geordi]

Union\'s....

Don\'t let him get to you Bill. He\'s just jealous that we actually get paid what we are worth.

That, and he does believe somewhere in that twisted little mind that just because someone has a \"blue collar\" type of job, that HE is better b/c he sits at a desk all day and gets bent over and porked by middle managers.

I have the unique perspective that I have done both white and blue collar jobs, and also worked for myself. While working for myself, there were times when I was charging $150 per hour, and people were saying THANK YOU while writing out a huge check. Was I overcharging them? Maybe. Was I being overpaid for what I was doing? Maybe. Would I lower my rates while maintaining the high level of quality I produced? HELL NO. That was the REASON I was able to charge (and get) $150 per hour.

He\'s obviously not producing that level of quality, and the market now has been opened up to undercutting from India, so his wages (or his job) are only going to go down. I pity him, really. He hasn\'t woken up yet and realized that ANY job where 80% of the time is spent in front of a computer can be outsourced INSTANTLY, and the schlub here tossed out on his ass.

Then where will his 5 years of schooling be? Feel pity for him. Hopefully he will wake up and change fields before he\'s too old to be useful somewhere else.

 

[Eddie]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Geordi 90LSC\'] he sits at a desk all day and gets bent over and porked by middle managers.
[/QUOTE]

Hey! Quit talking about my job.

 

[Eddie]

Union\'s....

You know, when I was coming down the pike (in the 70s) my father insisted that I went to college and get a white collar job. His words- \"go to college or go to jail.\" Well, I guess he was wrong- I\'m a glorified pencil pusher, making about $20/hr, and I love working on stuff and I\'m one hell of an electrician. My industry would outsource my job to Somolia if they could get away with it. Fact is, they have to have employees in Chicago, NY, Madrid, Paris, London, Singapore, Tokyo, Seoul, etc, cause the exchanges are there. Honestly, I\'d feel a lot more secure- and happier to boot- working a trade.

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[Geordi]

Union\'s....

Yea, there really is a stigma associated with actually WORKING for a living, probably b/c the people with actual trades are usually thought of as highschool dropouts and morons. What people that think this way don\'t realize, is that The Peter Principle is actually in effect: people are often promoted to their own incompetence. By removal of the useless-skilled people in society (by sending them to an MBA program) society is able to function and maintain the mechanics such as water and sewer and power, that would otherwise be undermined by idiots. The quality-driven people then can fill these essential jobs, and unions will protect their rights and guarantee productivity and quality levels for the good of society.

Unfortunately the most convenient place that is out of the productive flow to shove these hunks of deadwood... Is middle management. Where they exist solely to annoy the ever-livin-shit out of everyone above and below them.

I propose a hunting license be offered for MBAs, with no bag limit. :evil:

 

[Bill89LSC]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Geordi 90LSC\']Don\'t let him get to you Bill. He\'s just jealous that we actually get paid what we are worth.[/QUOTE]

I know. My oldest daughter has the same degree and makes 4 times what I do. She started her own company and just finished her Masters in software design. It\'s not the degree, it\'s what you do with your education.

 

[SVT Town Car]

Union\'s....

Thanks unions for putting Michigan in such a f$%king shit hole.

Since I\'ve started my trade (Auto Mechanic) I have NOT seen less than 25/hr and i\'m only 22. (NON-UNION)

Unions were needed in the past to get all the said regulations - now it\'s just crap to be over paid and under worked.

They seriously need to get rid of unions...

 

[DrDragon]

Union\'s....

Yes a lot of unskilled labor has been over compensated. Get rid of unions though and see how fast everyone gets fucked. History.......I\'m saying this even though I\'m part of a union and we are paid less now than 25 years ago. And we were underpaid then!

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[Bill89LSC]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'SVT Town Car\']Thanks unions for putting Michigan in such a f$%king shit hole.

Since I\'ve started my trade (Auto Mechanic) I have NOT seen less than 25/hr and i\'m only 22. (NON-UNION)

Unions were needed in the past to get all the said regulations - now it\'s just crap to be over paid and under worked.

They seriously need to get rid of unions...[/QUOTE]

And if Unions wern\'t around to continue fighting for those rights and regulations they would all be gone in a heart beat. Your making that $25 an hour because your employer has to pay you that to keep you from either leaving for a Union job and keep the Union out of the company. You are indirectly benefitting from the Union you just don\'t see it.
If there were no Unions fighting for workers rights and basically setting the pay scale we would all be making $7.50 an hour. Without competition from Unions big business would have a monopoly on our lives. They could and would do anything they wanted with us. Enron being one example. Go and read up on the early history of the Labor movment. It\'s an eye opening piece of History. If you pay attention you\'ll notice that in the 30 years that Union membership has declined in the USA history is beginning to repeat itself. Soon we\'ll be fighting for the same rights and benefits all over again unless people wake up and start paying attention again. I\'m 9 years away from retirement. I\'ve pretty much made mine. You young guys starting out are in big trouble. You just haven\'t been around long enough to see what\'s happening. I hope you do before it\'s too late.

 

[1badmalibu]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Eddie\']Not quite. Unions have stringent production and certification requirements. Union workers have to do things right, no bullshit. For trades like plumbing, carpentry and electrical, unions serve the customers well with a standardized, high quality level of service, quality and production. I know I wouldn\'t want the electrical done incorrectly on my house. I know how to do all that, to the stringent Chicago code, but if I didn\'t you better believe I wouldn\'t hire some hack to do it. I have seen the shortcuts the fly by night contractors do and it\'s not pretty. This is your property, your investment, your safety and health we\'re dealing with here. I agree they\'re not the right answer for every industry.[/QUOTE]


I\'ve seen just as many fucked up half ass jobs done by union workers as I have non union. I worked for the Laborers Union out of Des Moines for 9 yrs until I got hurt and fucked over by the company I worked for. The chicken shit union wouldn\'t back me because of the threat of so many companies wanting to go non union because of the cost of paying the high wages for the workers and the benefit packages.

As far as training goes lol. We used to have guys that were so f$%king dumb that they couldn\'t read so they union trainers would let them copy answers off of others tests so they could keep their asbestos removal liscenses. It\'s always nice to know that an illiterate moron is removing and handling asbestos and is supposed to be certified to do it but really isn\'t.

I\'m not looking for an arguement but don\'t preach about the unions having all of the best training and the most skilled workers. I\'ve seen plenty of workers in all of the construction trades that couldn\'t grab their ass with both hands. I know of plenty of companies that are non union and have great training, wages, and benefits.

Some have said the truth on here. Unions are overpricing themselves and driving buisness out of the country. You don\'t think that we pay 15k for a sub-compact car because it is worth it do you? We are paying a lot of that price for a union member to stand and make sure that the programmed robot is doing it\'s job putting the car together.

I\'m not pro or non union. I made good wages and had good benefits with the union but I also have good wages and benefits now without having to work in the hazardous conditions that I did before.

 

[Thunder Chicken]

Union\'s....

Another thing: Well paid skilled trades are one thing. Well paid monkeys installing door handles and following brooms around on a production floor are another. I firmly believe that unions and their greed are very largely responsible for driving manufacturing jobs out of the country and into cheaper labour markets. Prime example: A local train car plant (called \"Trentonworks\") recently closed up and the jobs went to Mexico. A few months ago the company announced that it was having trouble justifying the factory - it is in a bad place geographically, the Canadian dollar has gone heavenward, and labour costs were too high. The plant was losing money. What did the union do? Why, rather than accepting that maybe paying unskilled labour $60/hr might just not be the most cost effective way of building train cars, they demanded more and threatened a strike. The plant closed before they even had the chance to set up a picket line.

The EXACT same thing happened at a Moirs chocolate plant just a month later.

A region of Nova Scotia called Cape Breton is very union friendly - this comes from years of having a mining (coal) and manufacturing (steel) based economy. The mining and manufacturing BOTH collapsed, and now Cape Breton has one of the highest unemployment rates in Canada. Steel is in very high demand and commanding very high prices just now, but nobody will set up shop there because the labour is too expensive. Instead the raw materials are being shipped to Mexico and China, where it\'s actually cheaper to load the materials on a boat, send it halfway around the world, have it manufactured into something, then shipped back here, and then finally have duties slapped on the finished product, than it is to simply build the damned things here. Way to go, unions!

Ya know why Cape Breton doesn\'t have a baseball team? Because every time the umpire says \"Strike\" they all walk off the field.

Unions are pricing themselves out of work. In the case of a skilled trade where you can\'t send your shitter overseas to have it unplugged the unions can get away with it. In the manufacturing sector they\'re slowly (and very reluctantly) learning that they can only push so far. Regardless of what your union reps would have you believe, the whole point of business is to make money, and our whole market economy is based on that principle. When the company makes more money by sending jobs outside the country they will do so in a heartbeat. When al of the workers start demanding that they get large portions of the profits of a company regardless of how much they actually contribute to those profits that\'s called communism. I wonder how many unionized jobs will disappear before the unions finally fully accept that fact?

As for the actual productivity of unionized workers I agree with 1BadMalibu and will go one further by saying that non-unionized employees are generally MORE productive. Knowing your job depends on actually working is an amazing incentive to work, much like knowing the union has your back regardless of how bad you screw up is not exactly an incentive to not screw up. An example of union productivity: When my brother finished trade school he was in the carpenter\'s union (at the request of my unionized father). He waited months for them to find him a job (meanwhile all his classmates were already working in good paying, steady jobs). When they finally did give him a job he was working on something and needed something from across the yard. He put down his hammer and went and got it. When he got back the foreman was there tearing a strip off him. Apparently it\'s union policy that only labourers can carry stuff, and carpenters could only nail it together. His actions could have caused the labourers to walk off the job. He was expected to sit and wait for a labourer to bring his materials rather than get them himself. Now THAT\'s productivity - paying a carpenter to sit on his ass waiting for somebody to bring him his materials...


And about training: As a mechanic I went to school for three years and spent another three going through apprenticeship. Several times a year I was required to travel to other cities throughout eastern Canada for training. Every time GM made a change to any model we were required to have training on it. Dealership mechanics are constantly being trained. Not because of unions, but because that training is required (and paid for) by the manufacturer. Although I\'ve been out of the trade for six years, while I was still in it I received no end of training. No thanks whatsoever to any unions. To think unions are responsible for a well trained work force is just foolish. Regardless of the job the employee must be trained to do it, union or not. We also had full benefits including dental, optical, sick pay, vacation, drug plans, etc (medical is already paid for in Canada). Again, not because of unions, but because if one dealership doesn\'t offer it another will, and will get the best employees.

 

[markedman90]

Union\'s....

I\'m going to chime in on this once more, then go away.
I agree that non-union shops will pay well to keep workers from organizing. The clerical and technical workers @ Navistar (my UAW gig) would:
1) Cross picket lines - mostly because they could be terminated immediately if they honored them.
2) Wear Tshirts that were stenciled \"The UAW is going to make me rich\" while they did it.
3) Thanks us after we settled, b/c they also got raises and benefits in line with ours afterward to fend off the union.
My father also worked @ Navistar for 30 yrs., and I remember a strike in 1958 (yes I\'m that old - near 60) the UAW gave up .05 / hr. in wages for improved health care. Therefore, due to incremental improvements over the years, my family never had a doctor, dentist, optical, chiropractor etc. bill, and we raised 5 kids, so you can imagine what that could have cost.
Now that I\'ve retired (@53 after 30 yrs., I do have to pay for office visits, but have a $522 max yearly deductable for everything else.
I also got my apprenticeship (tool & die) paid for by the company, altho not everyone who applied was accepted. There was a screening process involved.
Now for what I consider the downside:
Union work rules stifle creativity. If a union tradesman sees a different / better way for another tradesman to do a job, there isn\'t a good chance they can make any suggestion that will be acted on (at least not immediately).
Unions will shield incompetent members from being held responsible for their mistakes.
Unfortunately, there are \"pets\" whether in union or non-union shops. In union shops, they have stewards (or business reps or...). These people have the capability of killing you on the job, but the union looks at them as a member - just like you.
People in a union shop will sometimes be forced to eat shit to protect their jobs / benefits.
Having worked in non-union shops (during strikes and a near 3 yr. layoff) I never ran into that situation. I could also be a toolmaker/machine builder/pipe fitter/millwright on any given day, and many times during any given day.

If there wasn\'t such a race to the bottom as far as wages, benefits and workplace and public safety are concerned, there wouldn\'t still be such a need for organized labor. When you see auto workers in S.Korea rallying for the right to organize, and then see ads for Kia and Hyundai building plants in this country (non-union so far), it makes you think.
When the city council in Pasadena Ca. outsources the reports of their meetings to India (last month - it\'s done by video conference) it makes you think.
When the McDonalds you go to in New Jersey has their drive thru linked to a call center in New Mexico \'cuz labor\'s cheaper there, it makes you think.
When people go to India or Thailand to have surgery and the level of care is superior and 40% cheaper including travel, it makes you think.
If somebody could twist a wrench, weld a joint, fill a hopper, mine a coal seam, drive a semi, pull a tooth, put out a fire or do a heart transplant by remote control from a place where labor costs are lower, environmental controls are not as stringent and workplace safety was ignored, you have to believe it would be happening, and may yet. It should make you think.:chin:

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[Chris95ACR]

Union\'s....

Wow, touchy subject I started.

The main problem with a union where I work is the fact that, I\'ll no longer be able to do my job fully. Point blank, non-union workers can no longer help me on a job, and that really sucks, because there is always a good amount of work to be done.

If I have a problem, I can\'t go directly to my boss, I have to go through a Union rep, then they do their thing afterwards.

The main question I wanted to raise was, what benifit is the union going to do for me? I\'m making 26/hr now as an engineering tech. I was due to make 30/hr in the next 6 months. On top of that, the UNION never came and talked to myself or OTHER employees about joining they just went out and got the needed votes to bring in the union.

 

[danistanggt]

Union\'s....

i used to work at the CCI plant in fairland. kroger warehouse...
i worked there when it opened. it was not union, a couple of months after the place opened me and a couple of other chicks got the teamsters to come in and we got the vote for the union to come in. management wanted to know who started all this union bullshit, and someone pointed to us 3 sitting in the corner... needless to say the day the union was to be voted on all three of us got fired. the union WAS voted in there and i felt pretty good about it. now the employees are not treated like shit anymore. and they got a raise and better benefits.

 

[po-po 5.0]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Geordi 90LSC\']Don\'t let him get to you Bill. He\'s just jealous that we actually get paid what we are worth.[/QUOTE]

Thats a f$%king laugh. $40/hr equates to roughly $80k per year. eighty. thousand. dollars. per. year......to be a plumber. I\'m sorry, but thats craptastically overpaid. I think I\'M overpaid and I make significantly south of that figure.

Bill, you think as a plumber that you\'re some kind of savior of society because everyone needs a place to shit. I work for an oil company. How many threads have you seen bitching about plumbing in the last 4 months? How many have you seen bitching about gas prices? Yea.....you\'re not the only profession that society requires to function. Get off your high horse. You\'re overpaid, instead of getting butthurt about it, roll with it. I\'m overpaid, I\'ll admit it, and my company will continue to pay me my wage because I still get paid less than other people at my position. I just can\'t believe someone whom I\'d consider wealthy would even try to defend their union by saying they get a \"fair wage.\" Fair wages allow people to live comfortably, $80k a year is DAMN comfortable now isn\'t it? Hell, with that kind of money I could live lavishly. I realize you live in an area with a higher cost of living than Oklahoma City, but STILL $80k is way better than fair pay for any number of jobs, including a plumber.

Once again, unions are great for members, they\'re shit for everyone else.

 

[90LSC_CT]

Union\'s....

Bill may be over-paid, he may not be, that is also a regional thing. $80k and Kansas City isn\'t the same as $80k in Chi town.

And who would show us such beautiful cars, if he didn\'t make the $80k?

That said, unions don\'t appear to be able to be classified as \"good\" or \"bad\" across the board. Some are better, some are much worse. It\'s part of being in bed with politicians too, that can make it bad. See Detroit.