MKX Pulled Right, now it pulls LEFT!

[Bill89LSC]

Union\'s....

I\'ve worked Union all my life and wouldn\'t have it any other way. I\'ve been in the work force 36 years and have been on both sides of the fence. I pay dues but in return I get a decent wage ($41 hr.) fully paid medical, dental and eyecare, free legal services, a savings plan, a 401k, and a kick ass pension, all supplied by the Union and partially paid for by the Contractors. I\'m in the Plumbing trade and the non Union shops are paying $30 to $35, you have to pay a portion of your medical and few have any dental or eyecare. Even fewer offer a 401k and none have a pension plan. Again in most cases you have to supply your own tools and vehicle. My tools are by Union contract supplied by my employer along with a truck to carry them in. All these things were won through collective bargining. As were things you all now enjoy such as paid holidays and vacations. Unions are also responsible for the 5 day work week and child labor laws. People actually died fighting for that shit. As Union membership has declined in the last 30 years so have real wages and benefits. The surviving Unions continue to hold up the wage and benefit scale and that is why big business wants them to go away. If there were no Unions we would all be making Wal-Mart wages and fighting 14 year olds for that. Like them or not, if your Union or not, you are making the wage and benefits you are because of them. United we bargain, divided we beg.

 

[FirstMark]

Union\'s....

well said, Bill.....unions were instrumental in bringing about alot of good changes, but like any other business, sometimes there are a few bad seeds. And yes, if they did not exist we would be fighting 14 yr olds for McJobs.....also, alot of good paying jobs have been lost in the last 30 yrs due to overseas contracting. Some fields such as plumbing,contracting,electrical will always have to stay, but alot of good paying manufacturing jobs have gone by the wayside around me. the plant my grandfather worked at for 37 yrs before retiring never was union (also my uncles,father, and several cousins), but they paid a very good wage and always had good benefits (a rarity with companies today) until they were bought out, and the new company shut em down and sent everything overseas...

 

[IowaSHO]

Union\'s....

in theory, unions are not needed, a privately owned business should be able to run the business exactly how the owners choose because they own it - and in a corporation it is public and anyone can be the owner, so invest in the company you work for to get a say in how things are run and what wages are - and if you dont like how a company is run you leave it for one that is run properly.

To be honest i think a lot of unions are corrupt, but so are a lot of corporate heads, The unions would be more efficient but i dont think a lot of people put input into the union. The closed workshop laws i think are pretty lame, if a political party wins office, we don\'t tell everyone who doesn\'t want to join it to get out of the country do we?

in a perfect society though, unions and corporations would be totally unncecessary as we would all be working hard with each other for the better good of each other and ourselves.....

 

[imported_Charlie]

Union\'s....

41 dollars a hour :shocked: 5 day work week :lol: For a plumber! :freak: Sounds like Unions are the downfall of America from those few statements. I bet I can find a Hispanic worker that will do plumbing for less.



( I really don\'t know, I just want to add this to see what response I get. )

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[Thunder Chicken]

Union\'s....

Unions used to be a good thing but they\'ve just gotten greedy and in the process have driven a lot of jobs away. I\'ve been reading about UAW workers making over $100k a year (including benefits) for working on assembly lines. Imagine, $100k a year for installing door handles. Then they wonder why the plants are closing and the jobs are going to Mexico, and why there are no manufacturers of things like TV sets and the like in north America. They\'ve simply made labour cost so much that it\'s cheaper to make the products overseas...

 

[stingr]

Union\'s....

IAFF is a great thing!

 

[imported_Charlie]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Thunder Chicken\']Unions used to be a good thing but they\'ve just gotten greedy and in the process have driven a lot of jobs away. I\'ve been reading about UAW workers making over $100k a year (including benefits) for working on assembly lines. Imagine, $100k a year for installing door handles. Then they wonder why the plants are closing and the jobs are going to Mexico, and why there are no manufacturers of things like TV sets and the like in north America. They\'ve simply made labour cost so much that it\'s cheaper to make the products overseas...[/QUOTE]

That\'s my impression too.

 

[po-po 5.0]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Bill89LSC\']I\'ve worked Union all my life and wouldn\'t have it any other way. I\'ve been in the work force 36 years and have been on both sides of the fence. I pay dues but in return I get a decent wage ($41 hr.) fully paid medical, dental and eyecare, free legal services, a savings plan, a 401k, and a kick ass pension, all supplied by the Union and partially paid for by the Contractors. I\'m in the Plumbing trade and the non Union shops are paying $30 to $35, you have to pay a portion of your medical and few have any dental or eyecare. Even fewer offer a 401k and none have a pension plan. Again in most cases you have to supply your own tools and vehicle. My tools are by Union contract supplied by my employer along with a truck to carry them in. All these things were won through collective bargining. As were things you all now enjoy such as paid holidays and vacations. Unions are also responsible for the 5 day work week and child labor laws. People actually died fighting for that shit. As Union membership has declined in the last 30 years so have real wages and benefits. The surviving Unions continue to hold up the wage and benefit scale and that is why big business wants them to go away. If there were no Unions we would all be making Wal-Mart wages and fighting 14 year olds for that. Like them or not, if your Union or not, you are making the wage and benefits you are because of them. United we bargain, divided we beg.[/QUOTE]


Proof positive that unions are great for their members, and shit for everyone else.

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[Thunder Chicken]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'po-po 5.0\']Proof positive that unions are great for their members, and shit for everyone else.[/QUOTE]
Around here unions could never get away with that in the trades. Contractors simply wouldn\'t hire unionized subcontractors. If you were a contractor building a large apartment building, and unionized \"Plumber A\" wanted $41/hr plus benefits while non-unionized \"plumber B\" wanted $30, which would you hire? And if you were a developer wanting to build such a project, and \"Contractor A\" needed $50/square foot to keep his unionized subcontractors rolling in the trough while \"Contractor B\" only needed $30/square foot because his subcontractors actually offer him lower prices in order to get work, which would you choose?

It\'s different in manufacturing, where employees can organize and form a union. With things like construction it\'s a different matter - even if the subcontractors all unionized on the poor contractor, the actual developer would simply go with another contractor that didn\'t have such expensive baggage. There\'s plenty of non-union competition, so the unions don\'t stand a chance in private construction around here. The ONLY place they can get jobs is with government contractors, and even that is dwindling as the government tries to save money while actually trying to get work done (you don\'t see employees of private, non-union paving companies leaning on their shovels at job sites, for example)

 

[po-po 5.0]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Thunder Chicken\']Around here unions could never get away with that in the trades. Contractors simply wouldn\'t hire unionized subcontractors. If you were a contractor building a large apartment building, and unionized \"Plumber A\" wanted $41/hr plus benefits while non-unionized \"plumber B\" wanted $30, which would you hire? And if you were a developer wanting to build such a project, and \"Contractor A\" needed $50/square foot to keep his unionized subcontractors rolling in the trough while \"Contractor B\" only needed $30/square foot because his subcontractors actually offer him lower prices in order to get work, which would you choose?

It\'s different in manufacturing, where employees can organize and form a union. With things like construction it\'s a different matter - even if the subcontractors all unionized on the poor contractor, the actual developer would simply go with another contractor that didn\'t have such expensive baggage. There\'s plenty of non-union competition, so the unions don\'t stand a chance in private construction around here. The ONLY place they can get jobs is with government contractors, and even that is dwindling as the government tries to save money while actually trying to get work done (you don\'t see employees of private, non-union paving companies leaning on their shovels at job sites, for example)[/QUOTE]


I completely agree with you. However, it would seem that most unions aggressively stamp out non-union competition in order to monopolize industries.

 

[Thunder Chicken]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'po-po 5.0\']I completely agree with you. However, it would seem that most unions aggressively stamp out non-union competition in order to monopolize industries.[/QUOTE]

The reason they can\'t do that with private construction jobs is that any licensed tradesman can start his own company (at least they can here). A journeyman carpenter, for example, can start his own carpentry business with only one or two employees - not worth a union to go after. Anybody at all, whether qualified in any trades or not, can become a contractor. Most contractors would laugh in the face of any unionized company that promised half the productivity at double the cost, so they hire these small non-union companies. Likewise a developer wanting something built would scoff at the idea of paying carpenters $40/hr plus benefits, so he\'d hire the non-union contractors.

It\'s the same thing with mechanics. Every shop I\'d ever worked in would have a union rep show up and try to unionize the mechanics. Almost every time they\'d fail. The one shop that I know of that did vote union went out of business about a year later - they could not compete with the million non-union shops in the area. The customer who already thinks $60/hr is too expensive would drive right past the shop that has to charge $80 because it\'s overpaying and underworking its union mechanics. The mechanics all lost their jobs and then had a hard time finding new work in non-union shops because their names were tainted with union bullshit. The free market system keeps unions out of this kind of thing because they price themselves out of work.

Unions were fine and well when they were seeking better living conditions for their members. Better living conditions should not mean paid like a king to work like a bum.

\'Nother, very recent example of union bullshit gone wrong: Both of my parents work at a large hospital (here in Canada they\'re government run, which means unionized government employees). Several people in one department were caught RED-HANDED (meaning there is absolutely no doubt they are guilty) stealing and selling drugs on hospital property. It was long suspected that these people were committing such criminal acts, so a sting operation was set up and they were all caught, charged, and fired from their government jobs.

The union exploded. Heads rolled. The union\'s logic? It didn\'t say in the contract that it was against the rules to steal drugs and sell them, so there was no grounds for dismissal. The employees were hired back on and then sent home on paid leave (since part of their bail conditions was to stay away from the hospital or any area where there are drugs they couldn\'t go to work). Imagine. Stealing from your employer, then selling those stolen goods on your employer\'s property. That alone is bad enough, but these items happened to be drugs (which, while legal if prescribed, are definitely illegal if not), which adds a whole new dimension to the illegality of the entire fiasco. Yet the union rallied behind these thieves and drug dealers, who are now sitting home for a nice summer vacation with full pay.

Then, to top it off, this whole thing has been kept hush-hush - the newspapers did not have so much as a mention of it (I only know about it because my father knows some of the people charged). The union insisted that the hospital administration kept the thing away from the media. If anyone else was caught stealing and selling drugs they\'d be all over the papers, but the union protected these idiots.

...And the worst thing - it\'s not the first time it happened. A few years ago a nurse was caught stealing drugs and taking them herself while at work. Because she was stoned she was neglecting her duties as a nurse (while she was passed out in the nursing station her patients were going without their food, medications and dressings). This one was plastered all over the papers, but it was the union that did so - they were again appalled that this thief was fired. Then, after dragging her into the limelight themselves they ranted about how her name was being dragged through the mud in public. At the end of it all the nurse was given her job back and ordered to go through a rehab program. Anyone else, of course, would\'ve lost their jobs and gone to jail. And even given this second chance she did it again a few months later - then she was finally (and quietly) fired.


...And people wonder why I\'m so anti-union.

 

[Bill89LSC]

Union\'s....

I had to go through 5 years of school that was heavy on physics and math, mainly trig. plus on the job training. At a starting salary of $9.50 Then it was an 5 hour test for my Plumbing license. The schooling is paid for by the Contractors and supplied by the Union. If they didn\'t think they were getting a better trained and skilled Tradesman from it I don\'t think they would be willing to pay for the schooling or as you say pay our wages and benefits. Any Plumber with a license is welcome to join the Union and recieve training. The problem is most of the non Union Plumbers are also non licensed and therefore cannot legally do any work in this State. Especially work that requires permits and inspections. Therefore they mostly do sewer rodding and simple service work like replacing faucets and such. I\'ve been called to more than one construction site where a non licensed, non Union Plumbers were trying to fly under the radar but were caught by the local inspectors. If the work was up to code there would have been no problem. They would have been allowed to continue after getting the proper permits. The problem was the work was not even close to any Plumbing code, not to mention sub-standard materials and inferior carftsmanship. At this point it\'s a health and safety issue. Had they been capable of doing the work correctly they would have pulled the proper permits. The Developers and Contractors realized this along time ago. It\'s cheaper to have skilled, trained Craftsman do the work right the first time. You get what you pay for. I am trained to and have designed and installed Plumbing systems in everything from residential housing to 150 story skyscrapers, according to the Chicago Plumbing code, wich along with NYC is the toughest in the nation. The company I work for now does alot of work building car washes, restraunts, and gas stations all of wich have some SERIOUS plumbing. We do work for Burger King, Mc Donalds, and BP Amoco to name a few. I don\'t feel a bit guilty about my wages or benefits. I\'ve earned every bit of it. If CEO\'s of failing companies can still pull down millions in stock options and salary, I\'m glad I\'ve got a Union that makes sure I\'m fairly compensated for my skills an honest day\'s work. Plumbers protect the health of the nation. If the power go\'s out you\'ll grab a flashlight. If your Plumbing fails and your standing knee deep in water and shit don\'t call a Union Plumber. Get that dirt cheap non licensed, non Union Plumber. I dare You.
.

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[Geordi]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Bill89LSC\']I\'ve worked Union all my life and wouldn\'t have it any other way. I\'ve been in the work force 36 years and have been on both sides of the fence. I pay dues but in return I get a decent wage ($41 hr.) fully paid medical, dental and eyecare, free legal services, a savings plan, a 401k, and a kick ass pension, all supplied by the Union and partially paid for by the Contractors. I\'m in the Plumbing trade and the non Union shops are paying $30 to $35, you have to pay a portion of your medical and few have any dental or eyecare. Even fewer offer a 401k and none have a pension plan. Again in most cases you have to supply your own tools and vehicle. My tools are by Union contract supplied by my employer along with a truck to carry them in. All these things were won through collective bargining. As were things you all now enjoy such as paid holidays and vacations. Unions are also responsible for the 5 day work week and child labor laws. People actually died fighting for that shit. As Union membership has declined in the last 30 years so have real wages and benefits. The surviving Unions continue to hold up the wage and benefit scale and that is why big business wants them to go away. If there were no Unions we would all be making Wal-Mart wages and fighting 14 year olds for that. Like them or not, if your Union or not, you are making the wage and benefits you are because of them. United we bargain, divided we beg.[/QUOTE]


Damn straight. :yes:

 

[DrDragon]

Union\'s....

They are needed now more than ever.

 

[Geordi]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Bill89LSC\']I had to go through 5 years of school that was heavy on physics and math, mainly trig. plus on the job training. At a starting salary of $9.50 Then it was an 5 hour test for my Plumbing license. The schooling is paid for by the Contractors and supplied by the Union. If they didn\'t think they were getting a better trained and skilled Tradesman from it I don\'t think they would be willing to pay for the schooling or as you say pay our wages and benefits. Any Plumber with a license is welcome to join the Union and recieve training. The problem is most of the non Union Plumbers are also non licensed and therefore cannot legally do any work in this State. Especially work that requires permits and inspections. Therefore they mostly do sewer rodding and simple service work like replacing faucets and such. I\'ve been called to more than one construction site where a non licensed, non Union Plumbers were trying to fly under the radar but were caught by the local inspectors. If the work was up to code there would have been no problem. They would have been allowed to continue after getting the proper permits. The problem was the work was not even close to any Plumbing code, not to mention sub-standard materials and inferior carftsmanship. At this point it\'s a health and safety issue. Had they been capable of doing the work correctly they would have pulled the proper permits. The Developers and Contractors realized this along time ago. It\'s cheaper to have skilled, trained Craftsman do the work right the first time. You get what you pay for. I am trained to and have designed and installed Plumbing systems in everything from residential housing to 150 story skyscrapers, according to the Chicago Plumbing code, wich along with NYC is the toughest in the nation. The company I work for now does alot of work building car washes, restraunts, and gas stations all of wich have some SERIOUS plumbing. We do work for Burger King, Mc Donalds, and BP Amoco to name a few. I don\'t feel a bit guilty about my wages or benefits. I\'ve earned every bit of it. If CEO\'s of failing companies can still pull down millions in stock options and salary, I\'m glad I\'ve got a Union that makes sure I\'m fairly compensated for my skills an honest day\'s work. Plumbers protect the health of the nation. If the power go\'s out you\'ll grab a flashlight. If your Plumbing fails and your standing knee deep in water and shit don\'t call a Union Plumber. Get that dirt cheap non licensed, non Union Plumber. I dare You.
.[/QUOTE]

Again, Damn straight. :yes: :cheers:

I work in the Entertainment Industry. Go to any concert, you will see all sorts of things that are easily capable of killing people, and most are suspended far overhead. You want that stuff to be hung by somebody working for $8 an hour with no training? You want an untrained monkey driving the forklift moving boxes that can weigh up to 1 TON each? I don\'t think so. The live entertainment industry is one of the most dangerous places to work, second only to jobs in mining or heavy construction. It\'s also dangerous b/c a lot of the pieces we have to work with aren\'t box-shaped, but are odd shapes and can be very unwieldy until they are connected to the fly system and hoisted into the air.
Then you have on-stage pyro charges, active motors and gears and hydraulics moving massive set pieces around... You want anyone untrained around that? HELL NO!

The trained and safe workforce is provided by the union. You are watched by your brothers and kept in lower-skill jobs while you are learning, and move up when you are able. And for this level of skill, you are paid decently. I\'m making $30 / hr average as a rigger in Savannah, and I\'m going to be certified soon, which will increase my marketability for when I head out to LA or NYC or Vancouver for work with the film industry.

 

[Eddie]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Thunder Chicken\']Around here unions could never get away with that in the trades. Contractors simply wouldn\'t hire unionized subcontractors. If you were a contractor building a large apartment building, and unionized \"Plumber A\" wanted $41/hr plus benefits while non-unionized \"plumber B\" wanted $30, which would you hire? And if you were a developer wanting to build such a project, and \"Contractor A\" needed $50/square foot to keep his unionized subcontractors rolling in the trough while \"Contractor B\" only needed $30/square foot because his subcontractors actually offer him lower prices in order to get work, which would you choose?

[/QUOTE]

Nice theory but here in downtown Chi where I work you can\'t so much as *move a chair* unless you\'re in a union. You have to be IBEW to *change a lightbulb.* It\'s the way it is. I\'m surprised they let us wipe our own asses.

OTOT unions have production standards that are pretty hard to meet for a weekend handyman. Example, drywallers have to hang something like 40 pieces of drywall a day or something like that. I\'ve been remodelling my basement and it\'s taken me 3 years to hang 40 pieces of drywall! Of course, I\'m also doing the electrical, HVAC, mudding and taping, painting and trim, all alone. Also studding the walls, hanging the doors, whatever needs to be done to complete the project.

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[Geordi]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'DrDragon\']They are needed now more than ever.[/QUOTE]

Hell yes. Without unions watching out for the workers, the workers are being treated like a commodity, and just tossed aside when a cheaper version is available.

NEVER FORGET: Business doesn\'t give two shits about you as a worker. Business cares ONLY for the bottom line. Why is it cheaper to have shit manufactured in Mexico and China? Well, you can pay shit wages to the monkeys willing to fling poo at your product line, but maybe you also don\'t need to worry about those pesky safety regulations or environmental protection laws either now do ya?

That\'s good for the bottom line, which makes the manager / director / CEO / owner more money b/c they can \"cut costs\" while conveniently FORGETTING to \"pass along the savings to the customer\" but every time a mouse farts and a cost for ANYTHING goes up... So will the end prices \"because we have to pass along our cost increases\" to protect that precious profit margin.

I\'m not against profit. Of course not. More profit is good. But simply considering that your workforce is nothing more than a \"cost\" and not ALSO your customer base is doing a disservice to your business. Cut costs for supplies. Cut costs for inefficiencies. Cut layers of management. Fire a few useless MBA mouthbreathing troglodytes that only know how to dialog about utilizing resources at meetings. The people making your stuff are also directly or indirectly the ones BUYING your stuff. If they can\'t afford it b/c they aren\'t being paid... Then you go out of business. It\'s that simple, and the effects are finally starting to ripple through the economy. Ross Perot was a funny little hobbit back in the day, but he was right.

For a BILLIONAIRE to be pro-union... There might be something good there, hmm?

 

[Geordi]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Eddie\']Nice theory but here in downtown Chi where I work you can\'t so much as *move a chair* unless you\'re in a union. You have to be IBEW to *change a lightbulb.* It\'s the way it is. I\'m surprised they let us wipe our own asses.

OTOT unions have production standards that are pretty hard to meet for a weekend handyman. Example, drywallers have to hang something like 40 pieces of drywall a day or something like that. I\'ve been remodelling my basement and it\'s taken me 3 years to hang 40 pieces of drywall! Of course, I\'m also doing the electrical, HVAC, mudding and taping, painting and trim, all alone. Also studding the walls, hanging the doors, whatever needs to be done to complete the project.[/quote]

And those levels of production are WHY unions deserve the money they command. Where else but a union, could you completely break down a 120\'x60\'x60\' space FILLED with lights and musical instruments and speakers and truss and video walls... And put it all into boxes and load it into 15 trucks (completely full 53\' trailers) and have the space go from \"Active Show\" to \"bare stage\" in only 4 hours? Oh, and that was ONLY 40 people doing it.

THAT\'S PRODUCTION!

(BTW, that was Alan Jackson\'s show and we loaded it out in 3.5 hours, and the show crew said we were the FASTEST sonsabitches they had ever seen while on tour. Took a full 30 minutes off the loadout time, and did it SAFE.)

 

[po-po 5.0]

Union\'s....

[quote name=\'Bill89LSC\']I had to go through 5 years of school that was heavy on physics and math, mainly trig. plus on the job training. At a starting salary of $9.50 Then it was an 5 hour test for my Plumbing license. The schooling is paid for by the Contractors and supplied by the Union. If they didn\'t think they were getting a better trained and skilled Tradesman from it I don\'t think they would be willing to pay for the schooling or as you say pay our wages and benefits. Any Plumber with a license is welcome to join the Union and recieve training. The problem is most of the non Union Plumbers are also non licensed and therefore cannot legally do any work in this State. Especially work that requires permits and inspections. Therefore they mostly do sewer rodding and simple service work like replacing faucets and such. I\'ve been called to more than one construction site where a non licensed, non Union Plumbers were trying to fly under the radar but were caught by the local inspectors. If the work was up to code there would have been no problem. They would have been allowed to continue after getting the proper permits. The problem was the work was not even close to any Plumbing code, not to mention sub-standard materials and inferior carftsmanship. At this point it\'s a health and safety issue. Had they been capable of doing the work correctly they would have pulled the proper permits. The Developers and Contractors realized this along time ago. It\'s cheaper to have skilled, trained Craftsman do the work right the first time. You get what you pay for. I am trained to and have designed and installed Plumbing systems in everything from residential housing to 150 story skyscrapers, according to the Chicago Plumbing code, wich along with NYC is the toughest in the nation. The company I work for now does alot of work building car washes, restraunts, and gas stations all of wich have some SERIOUS plumbing. We do work for Burger King, Mc Donalds, and BP Amoco to name a few. I don\'t feel a bit guilty about my wages or benefits. I\'ve earned every bit of it. If CEO\'s of failing companies can still pull down millions in stock options and salary, I\'m glad I\'ve got a Union that makes sure I\'m fairly compensated for my skills an honest day\'s work. Plumbers protect the health of the nation. If the power go\'s out you\'ll grab a flashlight. If your Plumbing fails and your standing knee deep in water and shit don\'t call a Union Plumber. Get that dirt cheap non licensed, non Union Plumber. I dare You.
.[/QUOTE]

I had to go through 5 years of school too! My school, I guarantee, was even heavier on math, trig, physics, and engineering than yours was. I have a BS in Computer Science from a well respected engineering school. I don\'t even make $41/hr! You think you\'re getting a \"fair\" wage. I say you\'re getting overpaid. This is what unions do for their members. They use bullying tactics to get UNFAIR compensation/benefits for their members. Which obviously is great for their members. Nothing you\'ve said so far has convinced me that I\'m wrong. I\'ve said it before, I\'ll say it again:

Unions are great for their members, they\'re shit for everyone else.

 

[Bill89LSC]

Union\'s....

Sounds like you need a Union!