New recall - substandard material strength in engine frame rails

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inmanlanier

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Jan 17, 2022
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Last edited:

peterk9

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Mar 29, 2014
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Thanks for posting that. What I find interesting is that it stated Ford checked 5,000 vehicles in their yard. So if you're wondering where your new vehicle is, that may explain it. ;)

Peter
 

Action

Junior Member
Aug 12, 2005
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693
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Phoenix, AZ 85008-1418
The good news is the company is looking for 77 Explorer or Aviator vehicles out of a window of 1000 vehicles.

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inmanlanier

Active member
Jan 17, 2022
297
139
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Yes, Peter - an error like this is huge. I hope the sub-tier has a lot of insurance because if trashing the car is the consequence that's a huge liability.

I just realized the table that I quoted for dates was likely incorrect. My production may have occurred just before the April 4 Window.

I wonder what kind of negotiation strength someone impacted by this recall has with Lincoln. We''d want a replacement, but that means a 14 week impact with no car to drive. I may want them to throw in the luxury package which means Reserve 1. How about my Lincoln 0.9% financing? Depreciation (or usage fee) for my current car (now just over 5100 miles)?
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Pete@STAP

Member
Jan 2, 2008
155
24
18
Ontario
My Lincoln
2023 Aviator Reserve 201A
Yes, Peter - an error like this is huge. I hope the sub-tier has a lot of insurance because if trashing the car is the consequence that's a huge liability.

I just realized the table that I quoted for dates was likely incorrect. My production may have occurred just before the April 4 Window.

I wonder what kind of negotiation strength someone impacted by this recall has with Lincoln. We''d want a replacement, but that means a 14 week impact with no car to drive. I may want them to throw in the luxury package which means Reserve 1. How about my Lincoln 0.9% financing? Depreciation (or usage fee) for my current car (now just over 5100 miles)?
Gutt feeling tells me those affected will be able to keep driving their affected units till the new build comes in, but not without signing a waiver of sorts. Dont think they'll be in a rush to collect all of them, just to scrap them, which is what they'll do.
 

Rixretired

Member
Feb 15, 2022
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My Lincoln
‘84 Town Car, ‘88 Continental, ‘91 Continental, ‘02 LS V8, Ordered Reserve , 201A Pkg, Luxury Pkg, Full Size Console
Not good - about 1000 vehicles (Explorers and Aviators) produced between April 4 and May 4 being recalled. Remedy is unfortunately a buy-back or replacement vehicle. Our car was produced 'start April 13, End April 19'.

Great! My Aviator was completed April 15,2022. That is from the email sent to mr via the Lincoln order tracking web site.
 

Tykster

New member
Jul 10, 2022
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Great! My Aviator was completed April 15,2022. That is from the email sent to mr via the Lincoln order tracking web site.
Looks like spec strength is 260 MPa. And the defected ones are only at 58 MPa. Not just weaker by a little amount. Huge structural difference.
 

Pete@STAP

Member
Jan 2, 2008
155
24
18
Ontario
My Lincoln
2023 Aviator Reserve 201A
Great! My Aviator was completed April 15,2022. That is from the email sent to mr via the Lincoln order tracking web site.
I wouldn't sweat it to much. Those affected by this will likely get a Priority1 from Ford to replace them as quick as they can.
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Lexxicat

SUPPORTING MEMBER
Jul 4, 2021
212
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Melbourne, FL/Saco, ME
It will be interesting to hear if anyone on the Forum is actually affected.

My BL GT was supposedly affected by Charge Port Harness recall. My build was right within the timeframe. When harness inspected its' date code was actually before the date of the defective wiring harnesses.

Hopefully no one is.
 

Action

Junior Member
Aug 12, 2005
1,387
693
113
Phoenix, AZ 85008-1418
While it may seem like a lot of data and experiences are posted on this Forum, (or many other forums) based on numbers, the possibility of any owner of the 77 units (of the thousands being made for the model year) posting here about the recall is remote.

On the flip side, for the company to find all 77 units would be rare as well. Unless there is a failure, a small percentage of owners will just ignore the recall.

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Rubyspal

Member
Jun 6, 2022
32
11
8
My Lincoln
2022 Aviator possibly.....
Well, we have been officially notified by our dealer that our 2022 Aviator that just arrived at the dealership is part of this recall and has a NO SALE HOLD on it. They told me they are waiting for more information from Lincoln/Ford on what option there are. They mentioned replacing the engine rails, I said I will not take the vehicle after that major of a recall/repair..... So now we have to decide do we reorder now and hope that the commodity restraints don't bite us, or do we choose to hang onto our 2015 Explorer for a couple more years till this all hopefully blows over.....
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inmanlanier

Active member
Jan 17, 2022
297
139
43
Well, we have been officially notified by our dealer that our 2022 Aviator that just arrived at the dealership is part of this recall and has a NO SALE HOLD on it. They told me they are waiting for more information from Lincoln/Ford on what option there are. They mentioned replacing the engine rails, I said I will not take the vehicle after that major of a recall/repair..... So now we have to decide do we reorder now and hope that the commodity restraints don't bite us, or do we choose to hang onto our 2015 Explorer for a couple more years till this all hopefully blows over.....
I'm sorry to hear of your plight.

It sounds like they may be a bit premature based on what was read. There was a large population of potentially impacted vehicles in the time window but from what I recall a relatively small population of those actually had deficient material (almost randomly distributed as documented in the reports). I say this assuming they have not done the testing at your dealership to validate if your actual frame rails are of deficient strength.

NDE (Non Destructive Examination) techniques are the means they can easily determine if your vehicle is affected. I understand the defects were discovered in the bolt torqueing of critical sub-frame connectors. With such experience, if done by hand, the torque wrench operator simply knows it doesn't feel right - the fastener will rotate a good bit more than normal. If mechanistically (perhaps robotically) torqued, my assumption is the automated torque machines have pre-programmed limits for things like deflection and or rotation prior to achieving the desired preload.

If a vehicle was released to the dealership, it failed no test. This is important to note. It left the factory with no failed tests or they would have scrapped/reworked. I believe your vehicle simply falls in one of the potentially suspect vehicles from the questionable timeframe.

If that's the case - then with a simple hardness test they can ascertain to an order of magnitude (well within the strength thresholds of the potentially deficient metal or good material) if you are fine or dubious. Said test is easy to perform on the frame rails (the classic one is a Charpy impact test).

Lacking such tests, tell them BS - validate if your frame rails are deficient OR NOT! If they did such tests in situ at your dealership (I highly doubt it) - most certainly I agree with you that I would not trust the local dealership to do the potentially significant effort without some significant extension in warranty for those impacted areas (e.g. 100K, 7 years or more for ANY impacted element of the car touched by their retrofit activities).

For what it's worth, I'm a retired PE and I worked in Nuclear Power industry in the group at our company that did these exact same assessments, studies and remedies. We had a Scanning Electron Microscope and two phenomenal engineers I worked with (one a Masters in Mechanical, BS in Chemical from my alma mater - Georgia Tech, the other a University of Ohio Welding Certified Engineer that worked in Westinghouse Nuclear prior to coming to our company. our boss came from Com Ed with a similar background and was an industry expert in Reactor Vessel coupons used to predict vessel hardness - this very issue - for reactors). I worked on numerous failure analyses that had these same fundamental concerns.

To summarize - determining if your car is has deficient frame rail strength is child's play - a simple Charpy impact test that can be done with a calibrated device in seconds for multiple spots on the frame rails. This will without fail determine if the material is deficient or not. If it is, then only you can determine if you trust them enough to effect repair and swap them out.

Good luck and please keep us posted. Feel free to PM me to get my contact information. I'd be more than happy to give you guidance here. These are great vehicles; it would be a shame for you to forego acceptance of a perfectly fine car in the event these dudes don't know how to do very simple and elemental validation of if the material is deficient or not.
 

Rubyspal

Member
Jun 6, 2022
32
11
8
My Lincoln
2022 Aviator possibly.....
I'm sorry to hear of your plight.

It sounds like they may be a bit premature based on what was read. There was a large population of potentially impacted vehicles in the time window but from what I recall a relatively small population of those actually had deficient material (almost randomly distributed as documented in the reports). I say this assuming they have not done the testing at your dealership to validate if your actual frame rails are of deficient strength.

NDE (Non Destructive Examination) techniques are the means they can easily determine if your vehicle is affected. I understand the defects were discovered in the bolt torqueing of critical sub-frame connectors. With such experience, if done by hand, the torque wrench operator simply knows it doesn't feel right - the fastener will rotate a good bit more than normal. If mechanistically (perhaps robotically) torqued, my assumption is the automated torque machines have pre-programmed limits for things like deflection and or rotation prior to achieving the desired preload.

If a vehicle was released to the dealership, it failed no test. This is important to note. It left the factory with no failed tests or they would have scrapped/reworked. I believe your vehicle simply falls in one of the potentially suspect vehicles from the questionable timeframe.

If that's the case - then with a simple hardness test they can ascertain to an order of magnitude (well within the strength thresholds of the potentially deficient metal or good material) if you are fine or dubious. Said test is easy to perform on the frame rails (the classic one is a Charpy impact test).

Lacking such tests, tell them BS - validate if your frame rails are deficient OR NOT! If they did such tests in situ at your dealership (I highly doubt it) - most certainly I agree with you that I would not trust the local dealership to do the potentially significant effort without some significant extension in warranty for those impacted areas (e.g. 100K, 7 years or more for ANY impacted element of the car touched by their retrofit activities).

For what it's worth, I'm a retired PE and I worked in Nuclear Power industry in the group at our company that did these exact same assessments, studies and remedies. We had a Scanning Electron Microscope and two phenomenal engineers I worked with (one a Masters in Mechanical, BS in Chemical from my alma mater - Georgia Tech, the other a University of Ohio Welding Certified Engineer that worked in Westinghouse Nuclear prior to coming to our company. our boss came from Com Ed with a similar background and was an industry expert in Reactor Vessel coupons used to predict vessel hardness - this very issue - for reactors). I worked on numerous failure analyses that had these same fundamental concerns.

To summarize - determining if your car is has deficient frame rail strength is child's play - a simple Charpy impact test that can be done with a calibrated device in seconds for multiple spots on the frame rails. This will without fail determine if the material is deficient or not. If it is, then only you can determine if you trust them enough to effect repair and swap them out.

Good luck and please keep us posted. Feel free to PM me to get my contact information. I'd be more than happy to give you guidance here. These are great vehicles; it would be a shame for you to forego acceptance of a perfectly fine car in the event these dudes don't know how to do very simple and elemental validation of if the material is deficient or not.
Thanks for the info and your background. I will give them some time to figure out next steps. I know I don't feel that this smaller town dealership has the proper Tech's to replace the engine rails, so I would not consider that as an option even with an full coverage extended warranty. I will let you know what their plan is. We will consider re-ordering with a high priority as we really like the vehicle.
 

Action

Junior Member
Aug 12, 2005
1,387
693
113
Phoenix, AZ 85008-1418
Well, we have been officially notified by our dealer that our 2022 Aviator that just arrived at the dealership is part of this recall and has a NO SALE HOLD on it. They told me they are waiting for more information from Lincoln/Ford on what option there are. They mentioned replacing the engine rails, I said I will not take the vehicle after that major of a recall/repair..... So now we have to decide do we reorder now and hope that the commodity restraints don't bite us, or do we choose to hang onto our 2015 Explorer for a couple more years till this all hopefully blows over.....
All you know is your vehicle is in the group of 1000. May or may not be one of 77 correct?

Action
 

Pete@STAP

Member
Jan 2, 2008
155
24
18
Ontario
My Lincoln
2023 Aviator Reserve 201A
Thanks for the info and your background. I will give them some time to figure out next steps. I know I don't feel that this smaller town dealership has the proper Tech's to replace the engine rails, so I would not consider that as an option even with an full coverage extended warranty. I will let you know what their plan is. We will consider re-ordering with a high priority as we really like the vehicle.
I have a small town dealer, and what they may or may not lack in expert mechanics, they make up for in complete honesty/no gimmicks/ no B.S. They're just as capable as any of the previous dealers I've dealt with.
Well, we have been officially notified by our dealer that our 2022 Aviator that just arrived at the dealership is part of this recall and has a NO SALE HOLD on it. They told me they are waiting for more information from Lincoln/Ford on what option there are. They mentioned replacing the engine rails, I said I will not take the vehicle after that major of a recall/repair..... So now we have to decide do we reorder now and hope that the commodity restraints don't bite us, or do we choose to hang onto our 2015 Explorer for a couple more years till this all hopefully blows over.....
Agree. I'd rather play it safe and save myself some grief and would skip right on past it, not knowing if it's one of the ones Ford knows about, but hasn't got a clue of their locations and is happy to sell them all and then have YOU deal with buyback etc. I spend way more time with problem vehicles than any customer should have and I'd be a duck if i was to buy this vehicle without knowing it's not one of the 77.
______________________________
 

2021Navigator

Active member
Dec 15, 2020
231
84
28
I would also give credit to a "smaller dealership" The technicians have to go through quite a bit of training and the documentation for repairing and replacing parts is pretty extensive with step by step procedures normally with pictures and written procedures to avoid any uncertainty for who might be performing the repair.

However, I do understand your concern with it being a new vehicle and you clearly have to be comfortable with the repair if it is even needed. I also think the idea of getting an additional warranty would help alleviative any concerns if something were to happen in the future.
 

BriBoy

New member
Sep 12, 2020
28
13
3
I'm sorry to hear of your plight.

It sounds like they may be a bit premature based on what was read. There was a large population of potentially impacted vehicles in the time window but from what I recall a relatively small population of those actually had deficient material (almost randomly distributed as documented in the reports). I say this assuming they have not done the testing at your dealership to validate if your actual frame rails are of deficient strength.

NDE (Non Destructive Examination) techniques are the means they can easily determine if your vehicle is affected. I understand the defects were discovered in the bolt torqueing of critical sub-frame connectors. With such experience, if done by hand, the torque wrench operator simply knows it doesn't feel right - the fastener will rotate a good bit more than normal. If mechanistically (perhaps robotically) torqued, my assumption is the automated torque machines have pre-programmed limits for things like deflection and or rotation prior to achieving the desired preload.

If a vehicle was released to the dealership, it failed no test. This is important to note. It left the factory with no failed tests or they would have scrapped/reworked. I believe your vehicle simply falls in one of the potentially suspect vehicles from the questionable timeframe.

If that's the case - then with a simple hardness test they can ascertain to an order of magnitude (well within the strength thresholds of the potentially deficient metal or good material) if you are fine or dubious. Said test is easy to perform on the frame rails (the classic one is a Charpy impact test).

Lacking such tests, tell them BS - validate if your frame rails are deficient OR NOT! If they did such tests in situ at your dealership (I highly doubt it) - most certainly I agree with you that I would not trust the local dealership to do the potentially significant effort without some significant extension in warranty for those impacted areas (e.g. 100K, 7 years or more for ANY impacted element of the car touched by their retrofit activities).

For what it's worth, I'm a retired PE and I worked in Nuclear Power industry in the group at our company that did these exact same assessments, studies and remedies. We had a Scanning Electron Microscope and two phenomenal engineers I worked with (one a Masters in Mechanical, BS in Chemical from my alma mater - Georgia Tech, the other a University of Ohio Welding Certified Engineer that worked in Westinghouse Nuclear prior to coming to our company. our boss came from Com Ed with a similar background and was an industry expert in Reactor Vessel coupons used to predict vessel hardness - this very issue - for reactors). I worked on numerous failure analyses that had these same fundamental concerns.

To summarize - determining if your car is has deficient frame rail strength is child's play - a simple Charpy impact test that can be done with a calibrated device in seconds for multiple spots on the frame rails. This will without fail determine if the material is deficient or not. If it is, then only you can determine if you trust them enough to effect repair and swap them out.

Good luck and please keep us posted. Feel free to PM me to get my contact information. I'd be more than happy to give you guidance here. These are great vehicles; it would be a shame for you to forego acceptance of a perfectly fine car in the event these dudes don't know how to do very simple and elemental validation of if the material is deficient or not.
Respect
 

bbf2530

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2011
4,151
2,434
113
Thanks for the info and your background. I will give them some time to figure out next steps. I know I don't feel that this smaller town dealership has the proper Tech's to replace the engine rails, so I would not consider that as an option even with an full coverage extended warranty. I will let you know what their plan is. We will consider re-ordering with a high priority as we really like the vehicle.

Hi Rubyspal. You have received good advice from all above. Yes, your vehicle is in the recall group, but the odds that your vehicle has the affected frame rails installed is low.

As others above explained, testing/verification is simple. There will be no fudging or mistakes by your Dealership as far as testing to assure your vehicle is not within the defective group. If they have any questions, a Lincoln/Ford engineer will be called in.
For what it is worth...I can assure you that personally, I would have no problem accepting that particular vehicle if Lincoln and the Dealer inspect it/test it, and it passes.

And if your vehicle is in that group, I agree with you. I would not accept a repair (not sure it is even a choice), and would take the reorder option.

Keep us updated and good luck.
 

Rubyspal

Member
Jun 6, 2022
32
11
8
My Lincoln
2022 Aviator possibly.....
If the vehicle passes the testing/verification and they can show me the results I will drive it home that day. If not, well we will not purchase it and will reorder, hopefully with a higher priority as we don't want to wait 9 months like this one took from order to delivery....
 
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