BEWARE -Cruise control cancel button causing unsafe behavior

compuatt

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Thank you all for working this issue with me.

The update is that when I requested that my "Lincoln Concierge" escalate the issue, she pointed out that her title "Customer Service Manager" included the word "Manager." Moreover, she refused to engage a subject matter expert internally.

I paraphrase, the dealer said it's normal. End of matter.

I continued to push for escalation despite her refusal.

I'm a lawyer so sent a very lawyer like email to my "Concierge" person along with a litigation hold notice. I represent Fortune 500 companies (technology lawyer) and I knew that internal procedures would require an escalation to legal.

Then I received an unexpected call from someone with the title "Assistant Client Operations Manager." I suppose that's an escalation, but I do note the word "Assistant."

I also assume but don't really know that legal basically said, "Please call this guy and make him go away."

My Assistant Client Operations Manager seemed to be listening to my perspective (or well-trained to appear to be listening) and she promised to engage a subject matter expert internally and get back to me. The saga continues.

Tangent - Please remind me why I bought a Lincoln after owning or leasing five Lexus's and saying things like, "Lexus has perfected customer service."

First - (not quite literal) - Lexus's never break.

Second (literal) - When they do break, the customer service they provide is impeccable.

The two Lincoln dealers I have used have been atrocious. The Lincoln Concierge service for a non-routine issue like this has likewise been atrocious.

So I still love love love the car, but the next one will be a Lexus.

(I love it mostly because I think Ford's driver assist tech is third best after (2020 models) Tesla and the Cadillac CT6. In 2020, only the CT6 had Cadillac's best tech in it.) Third best is excellent.

Remember - tech lawyer which translates into I love my tech toys. This car is my most expensive tech toy so far. He who dies with the best toys ...
 

syl

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I also assume but don't really know that legal basically said, "Please call this guy and make him go away."
That certainly is what I would expect. Wouldn't you say the same to the nearest CSR?

Tangent - Please remind me why I bought a Lincoln after owning or leasing five Lexus's and saying things like, "Lexus has perfected customer service."
Because the user interface in the Lexus NX is absolutely atrocious compared to the Lincoln (touch pad, really? While I'm driving????) *and* the seats aren't nearly as comfortable. And let's face it, the Lincoln just looks better ...

The two Lincoln dealers I have used have been atrocious. The Lincoln Concierge service for a non-routine issue like this has likewise been atrocious.
The Lincoln dealer near me has been fantastic, though I've not used their service department (not entirely true: they corrected an incorrectly installed valve stem on a winter tire they mounted, and gave me no grief about that at all)

(I love it mostly because I think Ford's driver assist tech is third best after (2020 models) Tesla and the Cadillac CT6. In 2020, only the CT6 had Cadillac's best tech in it.) Third best is excellent.
Agreed that the tech in the Lincoln and CT6 are really good. I'm unable to compare to the Tesla, though I've obviously heard good things, save for when the screen crashes, *no* controls, other than basic driving controls, are available. Note: not "if the screen crashes" ...

Remember - tech lawyer which translates into I love my tech toys. This car is my most expensive tech toy so far. He who dies with the best toys ...
We'll have to compare when the time comes ... computer analyst with diesel mechanic training, who tinkers with woodworking. Some of my best toys are tools! :)
 

Corsart

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Thank you all for working this issue with me.

The update is that when I requested that my "Lincoln Concierge" escalate the issue, she pointed out that her title "Customer Service Manager" included the word "Manager." Moreover, she refused to engage a subject matter expert internally.

I paraphrase, the dealer said it's normal. End of matter.

I continued to push for escalation despite her refusal.

I'm a lawyer so sent a very lawyer like email to my "Concierge" person along with a litigation hold notice. I represent Fortune 500 companies (technology lawyer) and I knew that internal procedures would require an escalation to legal.

Then I received an unexpected call from someone with the title "Assistant Client Operations Manager." I suppose that's an escalation, but I do note the word "Assistant."

I also assume but don't really know that legal basically said, "Please call this guy and make him go away."

My Assistant Client Operations Manager seemed to be listening to my perspective (or well-trained to appear to be listening) and she promised to engage a subject matter expert internally and get back to me. The saga continues.

Tangent - Please remind me why I bought a Lincoln after owning or leasing five Lexus's and saying things like, "Lexus has perfected customer service."

First - (not quite literal) - Lexus's never break.

Second (literal) - When they do break, the customer service they provide is impeccable.

The two Lincoln dealers I have used have been atrocious. The Lincoln Concierge service for a non-routine issue like this has likewise been atrocious.

So I still love love love the car, but the next one will be a Lexus.

(I love it mostly because I think Ford's driver assist tech is third best after (2020 models) Tesla and the Cadillac CT6. In 2020, only the CT6 had Cadillac's best tech in it.) Third best is excellent.

Remember - tech lawyer which translates into I love my tech toys. This car is my most expensive tech toy so far. He who dies with the best toys ..



Maybe you should just make sure the engine is running before you cancel the ACC?
 

syl

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Maybe you should just make sure the engine is running before you cancel the ACC?
I think that if the dealership admitted that there is a problem and that they don't have any way to fix it, that might be argued to be a reasonable workaround, but I'd emphasize that that's what it is.

As things are, compuatt's dealer is claiming that the behaviour he's seeing is "normal". That simply doesn't make sense. Ford needs to get on the dealer's case to fix the problem, or admit that they can't, and gather enough information for them to be able to fix this as a bug in software, which is most certainly what it is. That won't happen unless lawyers are involved, I expect, so it's sort of fitting that this is what compuatt does for a living...
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Corsart

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I think that if the dealership admitted that there is a problem and that they don't have any way to fix it, that might be argued to be a reasonable workaround, but I'd emphasize that that's what it is.

As things are, compuatt's dealer is claiming that the behaviour he's seeing is "normal". That simply doesn't make sense. Ford needs to get on the dealer's case to fix the problem, or admit that they can't, and gather enough information for them to be able to fix this as a bug in software, which is most certainly what it is. That won't happen unless lawyers are involved, I expect, so it's sort of fitting that this is what compuatt does for a living...

If the dealer has experienced the problem, there's no way they can conclude it is "Normal". So, either they were unable to duplicate it or they were defensively reacting to the tone of the presentation or a combo of both. Take into consideration that the driver's actual report is inaccurate..that the engine is idling...and you have a stew of misinformation that makes resolution much more difficult.

I'd disagree with the contention that lawyering up will resolve this, the OP has made it abundantly clear he's an attorney yet all that preening hasn't been effective at aiding resolution. Better to educate and inform and assume the dealer and Lincoln would like to resolve the issue amicably. The task is the best way to accomplish that, and accuracy is key, along with a dollop of amicability.
 
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syl

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If the dealer has experienced the problem, there's no way they can conclude it is "Normal". So, either they were unable to duplicate it or they were defensively reacting to the tone of the presentation or a combo of both.
I think you're right here, but it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't seem that the dealership is even trying, or that the parent company is pushing them to.

Better to educate and inform and assume the dealer and Lincoln would like to resolve the issue amicably. The task is the best way to accomplish that, and accuracy is key, along with a dollop of amicability.
This much I can agree with, though it might go only so far. I'm Canadian. We always look for the amicable resolution first. For the record, I do find myself reacting to how frequently claims for lemon-law refunds are suggested on this forum, but consumer protection laws are quite different in the US than they are in Canada.

What's needed here, though, it seems to me, is pressure on the dealership from the mother ship. Even if they couldn't duplicate the problem, by compuatt's description, I concluded "limp-home mode" early on. No service advisor, or even service technician, should consider that "normal". It should make them immediately want to check the car for trouble codes, and if none are recorded, it should at the very least raise their eyebrows ... (at which point they at least acknowledge that there's a problem ...)

Once compuatt provided a video, they have a perfectly accurate reference demonstrating the behaviour. They shouldn't even need to duplicate it themselves. It's perhaps trivial to work around, but it's *clearly* not "normal".
 

Corsart

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I think you're right here, but it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't seem that the dealership is even trying, or that the parent company is pushing them to.


This much I can agree with, though it might go only so far. I'm Canadian. We always look for the amicable resolution first. For the record, I do find myself reacting to how frequently claims for lemon-law refunds are suggested on this forum, but consumer protection laws are quite different in the US than they are in Canada.

What's needed here, though, it seems to me, is pressure on the dealership from the mother ship. Even if they couldn't duplicate the problem, by compuatt's description, I concluded "limp-home mode" early on. No service advisor, or even service technician, should consider that "normal". It should make them immediately want to check the car for trouble codes, and if none are recorded, it should at the very least raise their eyebrows ... (at which point they at least acknowledge that there's a problem ...)

Once compuatt provided a video, they have a perfectly accurate reference demonstrating the behaviour. They shouldn't even need to duplicate it themselves. It's perhaps trivial to work around, but it's *clearly* not "normal".
I think Yanks get a bad rap up there! Most of us are fairly reasonable, those who post are often disgruntled and many who reply confuse their own self importance with actual ability, be it interpersonal or technical.... so you get an unrepresentative sample.

I'd disagree that "Pressure" is required at all. There's no reason either the dealer nor Lincoln would look to dismiss or deny the claim here, there's clearly a problem. I think it comes down to content and style. They need to clearly and accurately understand the problem and when it occurs to both duplicate and resolve it. The report that the problem occurs when the engine is idling is incorrect.... You demonstrated this yourself....so we can assume the possibility that the dealer did as well. If the engine is idling, there is no problem. The dealer's report is accurate under those conditions.

I'd suggest recalibrating the entire presentation perhaps with another dealer, to include an accurate description and demo of the problem along with less posturing.
 
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syl

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The report that the problem occurs when the engine is idling is incorrect.... You demonstrated this yourself....
Well, to be specific, I demonstrated it with *my* car. I have not (yet?) determined whether my car will exhibit the same behaviour as compuatt's under the same conditions (auto-stop/start engages) where his fails. To take the result I showed, and suppose that compuatt's car will necessarily behave the same under those circumstances, without verifying it, isn't really fair.

I'd suggest recalibrating the entire presentation perhaps with another dealer, to include an accurate description and demo of the problem
I think that's a fair suggestion, but I understand from the original description here that two different dealers already were approached. I'm inclined to believe that in both cases the original approach was likely non-confrontational. Compuatt has indicated that he does mostly like the car, so we have no reason to believe that his initial contact was along the lines of "fix this or else". Exasperation does happen when one seems to repeatedly run into dead-ends.
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compuatt

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So I hate writing mean lawyer letters for myself. I have been quite patient through four times in for service with two dealers over which time they had my car approximately 45 days.

I gave the dealer a video and clearly gave them step by step instructions on how to duplicate the problem. The second dealer did duplicate the problem. He concluded that it was normal for the car to behave as demonstrated in my video.

I only got into litigious/ lawyer/ lemon law mode when my concierge said (paraphrasing), two dealers said that you car operates in a normal way and I will not escalate your problem.

Now I'm at a dead end and then I wrote the "unpleasant" lawyer letter, which I knew required an escalation to legal. Then - a supervisor called and promised to bring this a subject matter expert.

Next, I received an email from Lincoln asking if the problem occurred with auto hold turned off. It was a good question so I would think it came from a subject matter expert.

Well - I just ran a test with auto hold turned off. The car still would not exceed 7MPH. So now we know it's not an auto hold issue.

Then I took it one step further. I ran a test with auto stop/start turned off AND auto hold turned off. The car still would not exceed 7MPH. So now we know it's not an auto hold or auto stop/start issue.

I let Lincoln know the results of my test.

It's unfortunate that it took a litigious sounding lawyer letter to get this escalated beyond the first person who answers the phone when we call the Lincoln Concierge. However, that's what it took.

I await Lincoln's response.

This has to be a software or mechanical issue. I think we all think it's software. You can always fix software.

Now that I have the attention of someone higher up in the food chain, I'm optimistic that they will fix this. Time will tell.

Meanwhile, I never touch the "cancel" button.

As a complete tangent, I always wondered why this problem only happened to me and not my wife. I have solved the mystery.

She told me that she never used the "cancel" button because she never knew what it cancelled. Gotta love that answer.
 

2021Navigator

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So I hate writing mean lawyer letters for myself. I have been quite patient through four times in for service with two dealers over which time they had my car approximately 45 days.

I gave the dealer a video and clearly gave them step by step instructions on how to duplicate the problem. The second dealer did duplicate the problem. He concluded that it was normal for the car to behave as demonstrated in my video.

I only got into litigious/ lawyer/ lemon law mode when my concierge said (paraphrasing), two dealers said that you car operates in a normal way and I will not escalate your problem.

Now I'm at a dead end and then I wrote the "unpleasant" lawyer letter, which I knew required an escalation to legal. Then - a supervisor called and promised to bring this a subject matter expert.

Next, I received an email from Lincoln asking if the problem occurred with auto hold turned off. It was a good question so I would think it came from a subject matter expert.

Well - I just ran a test with auto hold turned off. The car still would not exceed 7MPH. So now we know it's not an auto hold issue.

Then I took it one step further. I ran a test with auto stop/start turned off AND auto hold turned off. The car still would not exceed 7MPH. So now we know it's not an auto hold or auto stop/start issue.

I let Lincoln know the results of my test.

It's unfortunate that it took a litigious sounding lawyer letter to get this escalated beyond the first person who answers the phone when we call the Lincoln Concierge. However, that's what it took.

I await Lincoln's response.

This has to be a software or mechanical issue. I think we all think it's software. You can always fix software.

Now that I have the attention of someone higher up in the food chain, I'm optimistic that they will fix this. Time will tell.

Meanwhile, I never touch the "cancel" button.

As a complete tangent, I always wondered why this problem only happened to me and not my wife. I have solved the mystery.

She told me that she never used the "cancel" button because she never knew what it cancelled. Gotta love that answer.

This had been an interesting thread to follow, can't wait to hear final solution, like you I have to believe its a software glitch. I wonder if we will ever get the explanation as to why in your scenario pressing the cancel button results in limp mode. I'd also assume for further software development there will be checks performed to verify the result of what happens when the cancel button is pressed.

Lastly, I do have to give credit to your wife for not pressing a button when she was not sure of its result!
 

compuatt

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Not that there will be an instant response, it should be reported to NHTSA www.nhtsa.gov
I did that weeks ago. Great minds think alike. 😊 All kidding aside, they might pay attention if they get multiple reports. Even if they do, it may not get no reaction because of the unlikelihood of serious injuries from a low speed rear end collisIon. It’s not zero probability since conceivably the rear end collision could be with the car moving at a decent clip and expecting me to accelerate in a normal way.
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chrisholland03

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I wish OP best of luck. The use case is interesting - I've never personally, or seen others use ACC the way being described (regardless of the make/model). I can see the safety concern. I can also see where an engineer or UI consultant would not design for it.
 

randyroyalty

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I read this entire thread, which I find fascinating by the way, and entirely agree that it does not sound as if it is operating correctly (and more importantly safely). But in making an assumption, I am reading that you are letting the car come to a complete dead stop, in traffic, relying completely on the ACC to stop the car without manually using your brake, which should disengage the cruise contol(but leaving it on to be re-engaged by using the resume button). Please understand that I am definitely not trying to be rude or critical, but this sounds kind of reckless to me. Cars are still meant to be, to some extent, driven by manual control. Manually braking and resuming this way would totally eliminate this issue, wouldn't it?
 

compuatt

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Here is the latest greatest update. I just got an email from the customer disservice center A.k.a. the Lincoln Concierge. After months of going back-and-forth with Lincoln continuing to take the position that this was normal behavior and after multiple visits to the disservice department at two different dealerships, their engineers have finally acknowledged that this is a software error. They say that they are updating the software but have given me an ETA.

I have asked them to reevaluate the prior denial of a buyback. I have a feeling that they will buy the car back since Lincoln has finally acknowledged that the problem real, there is no currently available fix and it's a dangerous problem.

In an attempt to help persuade Lincoln to make that decision soon, I will file a lemon law action. My lemon law claim might also cause the software team to make this a severity one level issue (meaning that it is at the top of the bug fix list.)
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compuatt

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I read this entire thread, which I find fascinating by the way, and entirely agree that it does not sound as if it is operating correctly (and more importantly safely). But in making an assumption, I am reading that you are letting the car come to a complete dead stop, in traffic, relying completely on the ACC to stop the car without manually using your brake, which should disengage the cruise contol(but leaving it on to be re-engaged by using the resume button). Please understand that I am definitely not trying to be rude or critical, but this sounds kind of reckless to me. Cars are still meant to be, to some extent, driven by manual control. Manually braking and resuming this way would totally eliminate this issue, wouldn't it?
I do not take your comment as rude. There is nothing about current tech that makes it a good idea for a driver to rely entirely on the computer for any driving action. I actively supervise the ACC ever second but I often allow it to bring me to a complete stop. It's great for this in stop and go traffic BUT BUT BUT - never take your eyes off the road.
 

compuatt

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That's interesting to know. So now we know that it's like a software issue on our Windows computers. Same software. Same operating system. I have the bug. You do not. In the tech world, we sometimes refer to this as "f..ing magic," i.e. inexplicable. :)

Anyone else attempt to duplicate the issue?
 
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