BEWARE -Cruise control cancel button causing unsafe behavior

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bbf2530

Junior Member
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I have not driven another Corsair. I would but it seems hard to find a 2020 on the lot at this point.

Also - even if another Corsair behaved the same way, my conclusion would be a software error in need of a fix. This cannot be "correct" behavior because it is inherently dangerous and contrary to the car's own documentation.

Hi compuatt. I understand, but just humor me for a minute and think outside your box, since you are looking for help and I assume you want this rectified with the expenditure of the least time and effort possible ;) :
So first...by demonstrating it does not happen in other Corsairs, it saves you the time and effort of needing to go back and forth with someone from Lincoln/Lincoln engineering/the Dealer etc., in order to prove that it is not "normal". By showing them it does not occur in another Corsair, it gets you directly to the "See...this is not 'normal', so please find a solution or Lemon Law my vehicle" stage.
Second...it does not need to be a 2020. This is not the type of behavior that would have been modified from earlier model years.

Yes, you are correct that if another Corsair does this, then it is a software issue affecting all (or at least many) Corsair's. But at least you now know where you stand without multiple phone calls and a Dealer visit or two. Then you can make an immediate determination as to whether you want to initiate the Lemon Law, as a software fix will take an indeterminate amount of time, if ever.

We already know the ACC system should not behave like this. This is simply a way to verify it is not "normal" or "correct" in the least amount of time. And it will only take you about 1 hour to do it (assuming a Lincoln Dealer is not too far away). Make more sense?

So...if I were in your position...the first thing I would do is stop by my Lincoln Dealership, ask to test drive an appropriately equipped 2020 or 2021 Corsair, and test out the behavior of the ACC system to determine my next step.

Hope looking at it from this point of view may make a little more sense to you. Also hope you understand I am not trying to beat you over the head with my point of view, only trying to help.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 

compuatt

Member
38
7
8
Great idea and I will probably do this. A test drive is a great idea because my wife needs a defective Corsair too. :)

All kidding aside, it's as great car with one serious problem. Love my car despite this.

One thing Tesla does that Lincoln does not is that Tesla can update system software over the Net remotely.

So for Lincoln, any software update has to come from the dealer.

First dealer did tell me that they did update the system software so I do have the latest greatest software update.
 
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bbf2530

Junior Member
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Great idea and I will probably do this. A test drive is a great idea because my wife needs a defective Corsair too. :)

All kidding aside, it's as great car with one serious problem. Love my car despite this.

Hi compuatt. :ROFLMAO:

All kidding aside, you only need to go into either the Service Department (preferably) or Sales Department, and tell the truth. "I'd like to take out another Corsair for a short test drive to test the ACC system, because I'm being told my defective Corsair is acting 'normal', and it is unsafe.";)

The truth is usually the best bet.

I''m rooting for you, so good luck. :)
 

syl

Active member
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106
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Naming names in a forum like this feels like bad manners.
I agree, unless one wants to lavish praise on the named entity. I wouldn't hesitate to name my dealer on the forum (I won't hijack your thread, though), or even the fellow who worked to sell us the car, but that's because they were excellent.
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syl

Active member
156
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43
One thing Tesla does that Lincoln does not is that Tesla can update system software over the Net remotely.

So for Lincoln, any software update has to come from the dealer.
That might be worth rechecking; I vaguely recall that sync-3 will update over the air if you have the car connected to wifi (I presume the intention is "at home"). Given that, I'm supposing that it *might* be possible to update other computer modules in the car over the air as well.
 

bbf2530

Junior Member
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That might be worth rechecking; I vaguely recall that sync-3 will update over the air if you have the car connected to wifi (I presume the intention is "at home"). Given that, I'm supposing that it *might* be possible to update other computer modules in the car over the air as well.

Hi syl. Unfortunately that is not the case. Only SYNC (and NAV map updates with SYNC 3.4) updates can be performed via WiFi. No other "computer modules" or systems can be updated via WiFi or over the air.

However, this will change with the introduction of SYNC 4, which is being released in some new Lincoln/Ford vehicles as we speak.

Hope this information helps and good luck.
 

compuatt

Member
38
7
8
Lincoln's final word on this was limiting the car to 7MPH and 2500 RPMs is normal behavior after cancelling the cruise control. That's absurd and contrary to what the owner's manual says. I'm going to pursue it as a lemon law claim.

If it is "normal" behavior, it's a design flaw.

I love the car but for this.

I must admit to pleasure when a random couple on the street said they were thinking of buying a Corsair and asked if i liked my car. I told them what the car did (ie 7MPH etc) and they said that they would not buy a Corsair. Sometimes the truth hurts.
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bbf2530

Junior Member
2,589
1,379
113
Lincoln's final word on this was limiting the car to 7MPH and 2500 RPMs is normal behavior after cancelling the cruise control. That's absurd and contrary to what the owner's manual says. I'm going to pursue it as a lemon law claim.

If it is "normal" behavior, it's a design flaw.

I love the car but for this.

I must admit to pleasure when a random couple on the street said they were thinking of buying a Corsair and asked if i liked my car. I told them what the car did (ie 7MPH etc) and they said that they would not buy a Corsair. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Hi compuatt. Did you drive another ACC equipped Corsair (or two) from the Dealers lot to verify whether they exhibit the same odd behavior or not? not?

Again, if the other Corsair does not exhibit this odd behavior, you have your irrefutable proof to show your Dealer and Lincoln that it is not "normal". Then you can see what Lincoln will do to fix the problem, or proceed with the Lemon Law.
If the other Corsair exhibits the same odd behavior, then proceed with the Lemon Law.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
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Corsart

Well-known member
480
286
63
Lincoln's final word on this was limiting the car to 7MPH and 2500 RPMs is normal behavior after cancelling the cruise control. That's absurd and contrary to what the owner's manual says. I'm going to pursue it as a lemon law claim.

If it is "normal" behavior, it's a design flaw.

I love the car but for this.

I must admit to pleasure when a random couple on the street said they were thinking of buying a Corsair and asked if i liked my car. I told them what the car did (ie 7MPH etc) and they said that they would not buy a Corsair. Sometimes the truth hurts.
Mark,

After reviewing your video, I'd suggest you repeat the test with the auto stop/start disengaged so the car comes to a stop and the engine remains running. Your vid clearly shows the car coming to a stop, and the auto stop engaging, cutting off the engine. It is then that you cancel the ACC, and also, you mention (inaccurately) that the car is idling, even though the "A" is illuminated indicating auto stop, and the RPM's are at zero.

This doesn't change the actual behavior of the car when you hit the gas, but it might clarify the actual problem here: Some glitch in the software that prevents cancelling an engine management function when the engine is actually off. Furthermore, if the problem does not exist when the auto stop is disengaged, your solution might be to ensure that the engine is running when you cancel the ACC function, rather than start a litigious process that you might not win.

Glad to have paid attention and help out.
 

compuatt

Member
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7
8
I appreciate everyone's advice. As for Auto/stop start, i will test. Good idea.

As for other Corsairs behaving the same, I don't think it's relevant. If they all behave like this, they have a software or other design issue. It's dangerous behavior.
 

bbf2530

Junior Member
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1,379
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I appreciate everyone's advice. As for Auto/stop start, i will test. Good idea.

As for other Corsairs behaving the same, I don't think it's relevant. If they all behave like this, they have a software or other design issue. It's dangerous behavior.

Hi compuatt. It is actually very relevant, as it is a problem solving method often used to determine what is "normal" behavior in situations like this. And again, no one here is claiming it is "normal". And we already agree it is dangerous.

Therefore, in case my explanations were unclear. If you test drive another Corsair or two, there are two possible outcomes: First outcome...If they all behave that way, then yes it is a problem with all of them. I agree with you 100% and that is what I previously stated. So now you know it is an inherent problem in all Corsairs and a fix/solution would probably take more time that you are willing to give. So therefore, you could begin with a Lemon Law buyback immediately (knowing Lincoln will claim it is "normal", if they decide to deny the claim).

Second outcome...If other Corsairs on the lot do not behave that way, then it is a problem with only yours. And the Dealer/Lincoln can no longer state it is "normal". So half your battle is won. And therefore, it would be a problem that should be able to be more immediately addressed, since others do not behave like yours. In other words, they can no longer say it is "normal" if other Corsairs behave differently under the same circumstances. And alternately, if you decide to immediately go the Lemon Law route, you now have definitive proof that it is not "normal' and can proceed with the Lemon Law buyback with hard evidence on your side.

Now, if you don't want to take the time to take a short test drive or two, you certainly have the right not to. However, taking those test drives would give you very relevant information, and help your situation out whether you decide to keep your Corsair or Lemon Law it.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
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compuatt

Member
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8
Hi compuatt. It is actually very relevant, as it is a problem solving method often used to determine what is "normal" behavior in situations like this. And again, no one here is claiming it is "normal". And we already agree it is dangerous.

Therefore, in case my explanations were unclear. If you test drive another Corsair or two, there are possible outcomes: First outcome...If they all behave that way, then yes it is a problem with all of them. I agree with you 100% and that is what I previously stated. So now you know it is an inherent problem in all Corsairs and a fix/solution would probably take more time that you are willing to give. So therefore, you could begin with a Lemon Law buyback immediately (knowing Lincoln will claim it is "normal", if they decide to deny the claim).

Second outcome...If other Corsairs on the lot do not behave that way, then it is a problem with only yours. And the Dealer/Lincoln can no longer state it is "normal". So half your battle is won. And therefore, it would be a problem that should be able to be more immediately addressed, since others do not behave like yours. In other wrods, they can no longer say it is "normal" if other Corsairs behave differently under the same circuustances. And alternately, if you decide to immeditaely go the Lemon Law route, you now have definititve proof that it is not "normal' and can proceed with the Lemon Law buyback with hard evidence on your side.

Now, if you don't want to take the time to take a short test drive or two, you certainly have the right not to. However, taking those test drives would give you very relevant information, and help your situation out whether you decide to keep your Corsair or Lemon Law it.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Thank you for the advice! I'm not sure which path I will take yet.
 

afh3

Active member
162
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28
Minnesota
I'm an engineer, and born button-pusher. I will be trying this "feature" out at my earliest and safest convenience.

I look forward to this experiment.

(y)
 

afh3

Active member
162
76
28
Minnesota
I am looking forward to your result.
As I understand the test-conditions, these are the steps:

With auto-start/stop enabled, and with all of the various start/stop conditions met (vehicle interior temperature, battery charge-state, etc., such that it will be active) and using ACC while following another vehicle up to a full stop, with the auto-start/stop having stopped the engine, press the cancel button on the ACC and then, when resuming forward progress, I should experience the condition as described here.

Is that the correct test-case?
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compuatt

Member
38
7
8
As a tech lawyer, I can already tell you are an engineer. I'm holding my breath to hear of your result.

I would note that I never noted auto start/stop engagement. That was an excellent observation from a post in this forum.

Here is what I gave to the dealer. In my experience, the sequence will yield the result, albeit unwanted, every time.

However, allowing the ACC to bring me to a stop would presumably be a scenario where the auto start/stop would usually stop the engine.

Instructions for dealer -

"The issue is difficult to duplicate so here’s a video demonstrating how to cause the car to fail. iCloud.

If you take the following steps, you can duplicate the issue.

1. Use the cruise control to stop behind another car.

2. Wait at least three seconds so that auto resume turns itself off. The dash display will say, “Stopped.”

3. Tap the “cancel” button on the steering wheel.

4. Try to accelerate.

When you try, you will see that the car won’t go faster than about 7 miles per hour. The tach won’t go above about 2500 RPMs no matter how much gas you give it."

Any questions?

May the force be with you.
 

syl

Active member
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I wanted to add a data point here, that hopefully helps support
compuatt's assertion that the behaviour in his car is not normal.
I finally did get to test this in my own car, and although the auto
stop/start didn't engage as demonstrated in the video (perhaps *that*
triggers the bug, is my thought), I was able to otherwise duplicate
the same sequence of events, *without* my car having the behaviour
his does:

- adaptive cruise control at 100Km/h (60mph, for the non-metric among
us)

- let the adaptive cruise take the car to a full stop, at a light
(off-ramp from a highway, behind another car; car ahead of me was
effectively controlling my speed. Weee! ;-) )

- after the cruise control disengages for being stopped at a light, I
"cancelled" the cruise control. No other controls were touched.

- note again that auto-stop/start did not trigger (apparently due to
charging, but I don't believe it).

- light turned green, and I was on my way, car driving perfectly
normally, as one would expect.

It's not a *perfect* duplication of compuatt's demo, due to the auto
stop/start not engaging, but I do hope that it's enough to help.
 

Corsart

Well-known member
480
286
63
I wanted to add a data point here, that hopefully helps support
compuatt's assertion that the behaviour in his car is not normal.
I finally did get to test this in my own car, and although the auto
stop/start didn't engage as demonstrated in the video (perhaps *that*
triggers the bug, is my thought), I was able to otherwise duplicate
the same sequence of events, *without* my car having the behaviour
his does:

- adaptive cruise control at 100Km/h (60mph, for the non-metric among
us)

- let the adaptive cruise take the car to a full stop, at a light
(off-ramp from a highway, behind another car; car ahead of me was
effectively controlling my speed. Weee! ;-) )

- after the cruise control disengages for being stopped at a light, I
"cancelled" the cruise control. No other controls were touched.

- note again that auto-stop/start did not trigger (apparently due to
charging, but I don't believe it).

- light turned green, and I was on my way, car driving perfectly
normally, as one would expect.

It's not a *perfect* duplication of compuatt's demo, due to the auto
stop/start not engaging, but I do hope that it's enough to help.
As always, a thoughtful reply Syl.

You seem to have supported the observation that the cause of the car's behavior results from an engine management system being manually cancelled when the engine itself is off ( auto stop engaged), and perhaps, the operator falsely believing that the engine is still running and/or that fact is irrelevant to the function of the cancel request. This is still "Abnormal" or undesirable, but the actual cause (and therefore fix) is clearer: There needs to be a patch that allows this engine management system to be cancelled when the engine itself is off. Until then, all owners should confirm the engine is running before cancelling the ACC.

Can you duplicate the problem when the auto stop cuts the engine off and you then hit cancel?
 

syl

Active member
156
106
43
Can you duplicate the problem when the auto stop cuts the engine off and you then hit cancel?
I'll certainly try, but opportunities may be infrequent. I don't get out much these days, and the auto stop/start on my car hasn't really worked since winter hit.
 
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