2004 Navigator - Huge Coolant Leak and P1299 (Cylinder Head Overtemp Protection Active)

[tedallen]

My wife was waiting in line to pickup our daughter from school and said she saw a message to the effect reduced engine power show up in the dash message display. She shut it off when she saw that, but later started it back up to try to get into a parking spot and it died on its own and she was able to coast into it.

When I arrived, there was a huge wet spot on the main road where she had sat for probably 10-15 minutes and another large spot just prior to the parking spot she turned into. I don't see anything wet from the top of the engine or under the radiator area. I felt inside both footwells to check for possible wetness from the heater core and haven't found any. It looks like the coolant is primarily dripping from the passenger rear of the engine compartment or further back, actually back around where the bell housing and transmission body come together. I haven't been under it to look from below. I'm wondering if maybe a heater hose back at the firewall could be the culprit, but from above, without removing anything other than the big plastic cover over the intake, I don't see anything wet at all.

I'm hoping that the P1299 error code cut the engine off before damage was done to the cylinder head/gasket.

Does anyone have any thoughts on likely culprits? I figure I will probably have to remove the thermostat, refill the cooling system with distilled water and try to do a pressure test if I can find a tester to fit the overflow canister. Then maybe I can see where the leak is originating from.

There also is an unrelated issue, in that when it was being pulled up on the rollback to be towed home I smelled fuel and there was a stream of fuel coming down from the driver's front corner of the fuel tank and running downhill on the rollback surface until it was raised to a near horizontal position. She had just filled the gas tank this morning as luck would have it and I have been seeing the P0442 "Evaporative Emission System Leak Detected (small leak)". I had replaced the Vapor Canister Purge Valve (mounted on the driver's firewall) and thought that might have resolved it, but it has since come back. I saw a YouTube video where someone had actually found a crack in the top of the fuel tank where the purge control solenoid (I think) is located.

All ideas are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Ted

 

[Indy]

If you have rear Heat/AC, then there are lines going to the rear heater core that carry coolant. Those lines could be leaking anywhere from the engine to the rear. In the picture below those two lines going down over the valve cover with the green stripe. I think it's metal in between and heater hose on both ends.

Also there is a plastic Y where I have the brass T, that tends to crack and leak. That could be leaking and running down along the hose and no telling where it's going to drip off.

Just follow those lines and do a good inspection, you may not have to even fill the system if the leak is bad enough. It maybe obvious in a visual inspection, try that first.



.

 

[tedallen]

Thanks @Indy. Mine does have rear heat/AC and has 2 sets of lines, both with plastic tees. I have read and seen videos about those tees being very problematic and prone to cracking/leaking.

Do you know if I would need to remove the thermostat in order to fill the system and perform a pressure test to try to find the leak without running the vehicle? The only way to fill is via the Degas canister.

It looks like reaching those "quick" connect fittings on the heater hoses going to the heater core connections at the firewall are a nightmare to reach. I know they make a tool to release them and some folks have been successful releasing them by pinching the exposed flanges by hand, but as far back as those are I don't know if I could even get my hands in there.

If it turns out to be the heater core that will involve pulling the dashboard assembly and I don't know if I want to deal with that.

Thanks,

Ted

 

[Indy]

Mine does have rear heat/AC and has 2 sets of lines, both with plastic tees.

I would definitely change both tees while you have the system open, I bought some brass tees, but they were kinda short for getting the hose and clamps on, but it's worked for several years now. Below is what I bought.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078VJT2GC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

But this might work better.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3ZFRL4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Do you know if I would need to remove the thermostat in order to fill the system and perform a pressure test to try to find the leak without running the vehicle? The only way to fill is via the Degas canister.

Since there is a pressure cap on the Degas canister, then you should be able to pressurize the system from there.

It looks like reaching those "quick" connect fittings on the heater hoses going to the heater core connections at the firewall are a nightmare to reach. I know they make a tool to release them and some folks have been successful releasing them by pinching the exposed flanges by hand, but as far back as those are I don't know if I could even get my hands in there.

I don't remember now what mine looked like before, but at this point it is using hose clamps.

If it turns out to be the heater core that will involve pulling the dashboard assembly and I don't know if I want to deal with that.

Maybe you could just slide the heater hose on the end of the heater core tube. But if at all possible, I would give the tube a very slight flare to keep the hose from coming off under pressure. If that's not possible, then use some 60 grit sandpaper to make the tube rough. I'm like you I would NOT relish changing the heater core !

If you want some good heater hose have O'Reilly's bring in some Gates Green Stripe heater hose. Don't let them try to sell you Safety Stripe, like they did me. Green Stripe is more than twice the price of Safety Stripe at $6.59 per foot for 3/4".

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/green-stripe/gates-green-stripe-heater-hose/gat6/28442?q=28442&pos=0

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[Peter land]

Thanks for your suggestions... this makes sense

 

[tedallen]

Thanks @Indy . Your connections look somewhat different than mine. What year and model is your vehicle? I asked in a separate post if anyone had a link to the service manual(s) for the 2004 Navigator/Expedition. I have a Haynes manual, but it is very generic and I don't want to rely on it for removing the dashboard assembly to get to the heater core if I need to. It mentions evacuating the A/C system to get the heater core out, but I have seen videos of other similar vehicles (F150, Expedition) where the dashboard was removed to get the heater core without evacuating the heater core.

I see a listing on eBay for a CD that supposedly contains a searchable version of the 2 Ford service manuals specific to the 2004 Navigator and Expedition for around $35-$40. I don't mind paying that if it is legit, but I would like to get something sooner. A direct download would be ideal.

Thanks,

Ted

 

[Indy]

I see where you are looking for manual to help you with R&R on the heater core. Before going to that trouble, which I think you are already planning, test first. Just remember my manuals are for a 2008 Navigator.



1. Turn the engine OFF.

2. Check the engine coolant level. Adjust the coolant level as necessary.

3. Attach the Radiator/Heater Core Pressure Tester from the Pressure Test Kit to the degas bottle
nipple and overflow hose. Install a pressure test pump to the quick-connect fitting of the test
adapter.

4. NOTICE: Do not pressurize the cooling system beyond the maximum pressure listed in
the specifications table in this section, or cooling system components can be damaged.

NOTE: If the plunger of the pressure tester is depressed too fast, an erroneous pressure
reading will result.

Slowly depress the plunger of the pressure test pump until the pressure gauge reading stops
increasing and note the highest pressure reading obtained. If the pressure reading exceeds the
maximum cap pressure listed in the specifications table, install a new pressure relief cap.

5. If the system does not hold pressure, remove the pressure relief cap and wash in clean water to
dislodge all the foreign material from the gasket. Check the sealing surface in the filler neck of
the degas bottle for nicks or cuts. Install the pressure relief cap.

6. Pressurize the engine cooling system as described in Step 4 above. Observe the gauge reading
for approximately 2 minutes. Pressure should not drop during this time. If the pressure drops
within this time, inspect for leaks and repair as necessary.

7. If no leaks are found and the pressure drops, the pressure relief cap may be leaking. Install a
new pressure relief cap and retest the system.

8. If no leaks are found after a new pressure relief cap is installed and the pressure drops, the leak
may be internal to the radiator transmission cooler (if equipped). Inspect the coolant for
transmission fluid and the transmission fluid for coolant. Repair as necessary.

9. If there is no contamination of the coolant or transmission fluid, the leak may be internal to the
engine. Inspect the coolant for engine oil and the engine oil for coolant. Refer to Section 303-
00 to diagnose the engine.

10. Release the system pressure by loosening the pressure relief cap. Check the coolant level and
adjust as necessary.

 

[Indy]

I guess you posted while I was editing my post, so I didn't see yours until now. I'll look for the procedure to pull the heater core if you think my 2008 is close enough, but it might be later this afternoon before I can post the info. Have to pickup the wife at the airport soon.

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[tedallen]

Thanks @Indy . I plan to do a pressure test (haven't had a chance between work and doctor/ER visits with infant to get that done yet). I did notice while the vehicle has been parked in the driveway that there are 2 wet spots that appeared under the passenger side, one looks like it may be close the firewall (the smaller of the 2) and one that is much larger that looks like it starts underneath the passenger side dash and extends back for several feet. My driveway has a slight slope away from the garage door and the vehicle is pulled in nose first. I thought from your photos that your Navi was a newer model since it looked to have a plastic intake and mine has an metal alloy intake.

Where did you purchase/obtain your 2008 service manuals from? I'm not adverse to buying manuals for my 2004 as long as I know it is a reputable source and I am getting what I pay for.

Thanks again for all your assistance.

Best Regards,

Ted

 

[Indy]

Where did you purchase/obtain your 2008 service manuals from? I'm not adverse to buying manuals for my 2004 as long as I know it is a reputable source and I am getting what I pay for.

I saw your other post about manuals so you can read my answer there. And of course you can see an example above for testing the cooling/heater core system above.

2004 Navigator Shop/Service Manual

Does anyone have a link to download the a specific shop/service manual for the 2004 Navigator? I am looking for something more specific than the Haynes "Ford Pick-ups 1997 thru 2003 Expedition 1997 thru 2014 Full-size F-150 & F-250 Gasoline Engines Includes Lincoln Navigator and F-150 Heritage"...

lincolnforums.com

 

[tedallen]

@Indy I finally got a chance to look at the Navigator earlier today. After filling it with water (no pressure) it started leaking profusely in the area of the passenger firewall, but from underneath I couldn't tell what from and couldn't see it from above either. I ended up removing the PCM and its bracket and was going to try adding water again, but I moved the heater core return line and it was broken loose at the quick connect fitting attached to the heater core return. Now I have have to figure out how to get that off. I went to O'Reilly's and they have some replacement quick connect heater hose fittings that could be used to clamp a hose to, but I'm not sure what size the original quick disconnects are. The have some that are 5/8" on both the male end (where you would attach heater hose to) and the female quick disconnect end that would go over the heater core metal tubing flange. They also have them with 5/8" on the hose end and 3/4" on the quick disconnect end. Those look awfully large to me, but the original hose looks to be 3/4" inside diameter. They also have Gates 3/4" x 3/4" x 3/4" tees there, but they are plastic. I asked about the Gates Green Stripe hose and they told me they have to put in a CSR for it and will let me know in a few days if they can get it, and if so, how much it will be. I checked for it on Amazon and don't see it in lengths shorter than 50 feet. I only need about 4-5 feet for the one assembly and I think I found the original assembly from Motorcraft for the one that has the valve built into it that goes to the heater core inlet for around $120 or so.

Ted

 

[Indy]

Congratulations you found the problem, just need the right parts and some time to install them !

If you plan on keeping the vehicle for several more years, then now is the time to replace all the hoses and start fresh with new distilled water and couple gallons of antifreeze. Although the lower radiator hose was a bear to replace, so you might want to think about that one. But mine is a 2008 and has a quick connect on the radiator, maybe yours is still the easier clamp style.

Looks like yours is the connector below according to RockAuto, 5/8" heater core and 3/4" heater hose.

2004 LINCOLN NAVIGATOR 5.4L V8 Heater Hose Connector | RockAuto

RockAuto ships auto parts and body parts from over 300 manufacturers to customers' doors worldwide, all at warehouse prices. Easy to use parts catalog.

www.rockauto.com

hey also have Gates 3/4" x 3/4" x 3/4" tees there, but they are plastic.

Plastic will work, but eventually they are going to leak again and will need to be replaced. Or you can order the ones off Amazon from the link above. And then there is your local plumbing supply. The longer the nipple the better off you will be.

I asked about the Gates Green Stripe hose and they told me they have to put in a CSR for it and will let me know in a few days if they can get it, and if so, how much it will be.

The green stripe is only needed if you are keeping the Navigator for a long time and don't want to redo the hoses and want the best. That's funny they don't know the price, it's right there on their website.


.

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[tedallen]

@Indy Thanks. O’Reilly told me today they can’t get the 3/4” Gates Green Stripe as it is back ordered. They can get the 5/8” in a day. I’m not sure about the quick disconnect. The ones you show are the ones I ordered to make up the heater core return hose assembly (the one without the heater valve in it). I actually found the OEM Motorcraft hose assembly for the heater core inlet and ordered it from Amazon. I found out that the parts that Ford shows for my VIN aren’t accurate. I found the OEM lower radiator hose assembly from Walmart online of all places and a Gates hose for the upper radiator hose on Amazon. I am waiting on those to arrive. I think I found the correct OEM hose that goes from the bottom of the expansion tank to the engine. It came in today from Amazon. According to the Gates part conversion site the heater hoses are actually 5/8” inside diameter instead of 3/4”. If so, the quick disconnects I would need are probably the ones that are 5/8” on both ends. If so, I ordered the wrong ones. I ordered a disconnect tool which arrived today so I’m going to try to get the old assemblies off so I will know for sure the internal hose sizes and quick disconnect end sizes. Odd that Ford would show the wrong parts. My vehicle was built in 08/2003 which looks like when there were parts that were changing over, but even when I shift the mode year they didn’t match up. It took a lot of searching and visual comparison of images to hopefully get the correct ones ordered.

While I’ve got everything out of the way on the passenger side I’m going to replace the spark plugs. Probably should bite the billet and replace the coil-over-plugs as well, but I’m spending so much already I hate to spend money on stuff that still works. They used to fail fairly often on my 97 Expedition, but maybe because of the cover plates over them I haven’t had to replace one on the Navigator. I’ve had it since 2016 at 154k miles and it has in the 281k range now.

I got the new Motorcraft thermostat today and waiting on the housing o-ring and 3 gallons of Motorcraft Premium Gold coolant (VC7-B) to arrive Thursday.

If everything I ordered is correct, then other than the expansion tank inlet hose and a few small diameter 5/16” or so lines around the water housing to intake, I should have all of them covered once I figure out the heater hose internal diameter for the heater core return hoses and tee.

I just hope I don’t spend all this money on hoses to find out the engine has other issues from overheating…

Ted

 

[tedallen]

@Indy I found a video on YouTube where someone was demonstrating a tool they made to remove the quick disconnects for Ford heater hose connections. Someone commented and said part F65Z-18472-BBC (Motorcraft KH735 I believe) fit most 5.4L engines. That is a quick disconnect with a hose attached via a spring clamp. I was trying to see if the disconnect was available separately. I did find the full assembly available on Ford part sites and about half that price on Amazon at this link:

Amazon Motorcraft KH735

I would love to be able to buy just the quick disconnect that is used in this hose. Does anyone know if the quick disconnect itself can be purchased separately from Ford for assemblies where a spring clamp was being used to attach the heater hose instead of the crimp connector? it looks like the Dorman part I orders as long as it is the same size. However, on the Ford site someone asked about the inside diameter, presumably of the bare hose end instead of the quick disconnect and they said about 5/8". So, if the that is true then I would need 5/8" ID heater hose instead of 3/4" ID which is different from what most people indicate they end up using. That would also mean I need a 5/8" x 5/8" x 5/8" tee. I did find Dorman part at O'Reilly's that is 5/8" on the quick disconnect end (to go over the heater core tube) and 5/8" (presumably OD) on the end the heater hose would go over top of.

I didn't get a chance to work on it at all today, but am going to try to get the hose off so I can check the hose and connector inside diameters tomorrow.

Ted

 

[tedallen]

Does anyone know the part number of the tool Ford uses to release the heater hose quick disconnects on a 2004 Lincoln Navigator? I ordered OEMTOOLS 27106 from Amazon which is supposed to work on 5/8" and 3/4" quick disconnects, but even the 5/8" end of the tool seems to be too big to fully depress the tabs on the heater hose quick disconnects at both the heater core ends and the auxiliary heat connections going to the back of the vehicle. I have tried to release them with my hands and even tried a 17mm open end wrench as I saw someone had success with, but I have had no luck getting these things to release.

 

[Indy]

I found the OEM lower radiator hose assembly from Walmart online of all places

Does it use the typical hose clamp or is it a quick disconnect ?

If everything I ordered is correct, then other than the expansion tank inlet hose and a few small diameter 5/16” or so lines around the water housing to intake, I should have all of them covered once I figure out the heater hose internal diameter for the heater core return hoses and tee.

I guess you know there are hoses at the very back on the right side for the auxiliary heater.

That is a quick disconnect with a hose attached via a spring clamp. I was trying to see if the disconnect was available separately.

PN 47164 and 800-404 are both listed as fitting the 2004 Navigator, but just maybe one of the others is what you are looking for.

Dorman Products - Search Results

Dorman gives auto repair professionals and vehicle owners greater freedom to fix cars and trucks by focusing on solutions first.

www.dormanproducts.com

When I did some further checking under the hood, I measured two different size hoses. So I must have used both 5/8" and 3/4" heater hose.

I have tried to release them with my hands and even tried a 17mm open end wrench as I saw someone had success with, but I have had no luck getting these things to release.

Have you tried pushing the hose on first while depressing the tabs, then pull it off. Pushing on first might help to disengage the taps.

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[tedallen]

Does it use the typical hose clamp or is it a quick disconnect ?

The lower radiator hose on my 2004 actually connects to the front side of the radiator using a spring clamp on the passenger side, traverses across the front of the bottom of the radiator to the driver's side and then crosses back over the top of the radiator support where there is a white/cream colored plastic ring I believe that connects it to the remain sections of the assembly. Then there is a large plastic tee with a short large diameter section of hose that goes up to the lower part of the engine and a smaller diameter tee that a hose comes off of that goes up to the top of the engine near the thermostat housing I think. The one I ordered from Walmart online looks like the correct one, at least I hope it is, even thought the Ford Part site didn't show it, but then again it doesn't show the radiator hose connecting on the from side of the radiator either and the part it shows definitely was not right even though I put in my VIN number.

I guess you know there are hoses at the very back on the right side for the auxiliary heater.

I assume you are referring to the ones in behind the panel in the rear interior of the vehicle. I haven't torn that apart and don't plan on doing so at present. I do need to try replacing the two actuators for the HVAC controls back in behind the panel in the passenger side rear at some point. Maybe I'll clamp off hoses and try replacing those at that time.

PN 47164 and 800-404 are both listed as fitting the 2004 Navigator, but just maybe one of the others is what you are looking for.

Dorman Products - Search Results

Dorman gives auto repair professionals and vehicle owners greater freedom to fix cars and trucks by focusing on solutions first.

www.dormanproducts.com

I ordered 2 of the 800-404 from Amazon, but they may not be correct. I just ordered a different removal tool form NAPA and they say it is ready for pickup. I'm hoping it will work (it looks more like the picture of the one in the Ford Service Manual I ordered):


The one I ordered from NAPA is Balkamp Part # BK 7769140. The OEMTOOLS 27106 Heater Hose Disconnect Tool that I ordered from Amazon was supposed to work on 5/8" and 3/4" quick disconnects. The 5/8" end of the tool has an opening that is 13/16" across and the 3/4" end of the tool has a 1 1/8" opening. Both of those seemed too big to depress the tabs in the slots in the sides of the connector.

When I did some further checking under the hood, I measured two different size hoses. So I must have used both 5/8" and 3/4" heater hose.

Have you tried pushing the hose on first while depressing the tabs, then pull it off. Pushing on first might help to disengage the taps.

Thanks for checking on your hoses. I did try pushing in on the hose while I tried to slip the tool up over the tabs in the connector. It just didn't feel (or look like the tabs were getting depressed enough. The one that actually caused the leak broke off right where the metal crimp at the end of the rubber tube went over the end of the quick disconnect, so it will be a nightmare to reach to try to push on it. If I can get the return hose loose first I may have a chance.

I'm heading to pickup the tool now. I'll let you know if it appears any different and if it does if I have better results.

Thanks for all your assistance!

Ted

 

[tedallen]

Well, I finally got those heater hose assemblies off, but it was not by any help from the OEMTOOLS 27106 or the NAPA Balkamp/Evercraft 776-9140. I messed with the remain "not-quick" disconnect connections until I ended up breaking the plastic fittings into where they went into the hoses. Once those were out of the way, I could get enough inward pressure on the remaining fitting to use my fingers to squeeze in on the flanges that extend out the quick connect end of the fitting and get the tabs to release enough to wiggle and pull the rest of the fitting off. That left the inner ring and 2 o-rings sandwiched around a plastic washer still on the metal lines. I bent the flanges back toward the end of the metal lines and as I did that they slid off.

Once I had them off, it looks like the inner diameter of the heater hoses is actually 3/4", but the quick disconnect is definitely not that big. It looks like maybe the quick disconnect needs to be able to fit on a 5/8" metal line with a flange and the plastic male end needs to be able to go snugly into a 3/4" ID heater hose. That means the Dorman 800-404 quick disconnects I ordered are incorrect as they are made to go on a 3/4" tube and into a 5/8" hose. I am pretty certain I need exactly the opposite.

Here are some photos comparing the Dorman 800-404 to the connectors that were on my hose assemblies (all 4 of them look to be the same).

 

[Indy]

I assume you are referring to the ones in behind the panel in the rear interior of the vehicle.

This is visible from underneath. The line is metal from near the firewall until it reaches the rear of the vehicle and then it goes back to rubber hose. If you slide under the Nav in the right-rear corner you should see them. I need to replace them myself.

I bent the flanges back toward the end of the metal lines and as I did that they slid off.

At least now you know what you are dealing with. Sometimes I have had to make a 5/8" hose fit a 3/4" fitting by being creative if I can't find the right connector. And sometimes it's just the opposite, by clamping a 3/4" on a 5/8" fitting even thou it terrible loose to begin with. If I have the room, I use two clamps per hose end.

Just do what you have to do to make it work !

Wish you were here, I know we could make something work !

 

[tedallen]

This is visible from underneath. The line is metal from near the firewall until it reaches the rear of the vehicle and then it goes back to rubber hose. If you slide under the Nav in the right-rear corner you should see them. I need to replace them myself.

At least now you know what you are dealing with. Sometimes I have had to make a 5/8" hose fit a 3/4" fitting by being creative if I can't find the right connector. And sometimes it's just the opposite, by clamping a 3/4" on a 5/8" fitting even thou it terrible loose to begin with. If I have the room, I use two clamps per hose end.

Just do what you have to do to make it work !

Wish you were here, I know we could make something work !

It sure looks like the Ford quick disconnects are made to fit over a 5/8" metal tube and then have a 3/4" hose go over the nipple of the fitting. However, I'm not finding any quick disconnects from Dorman or Gates made that way. They have them to connect to a 3/4" tube and have a 5/8" hose go onto them and they have 5/8" on both ends.

Do you think it would cause issues to downsize the heater hoses coming from the quick disconnects returning coolant from both main and auxiliary heater cores to 5/8" and then maybe upsize hose exiting the tee to go back to the engine to 3/4"? Maybe I could find a 90 degree hose that is molded that is 5/8" but with one end enlarged to 3/4", or maybe I could force the 5/8" hose over the 3/4" tube at the engine connection. I guess I could check to see if I can find a tee that has 2 x 5/8" and 1 x 3/4" connections.

I just went out and looked at the hose connections again and I think I figured them out. I think all of the quick connect fittings are made to go onto 5/8" metal tubes. I verified that the OEM Ford heater hose assembly I bought to go the main heater core inlet is correct, so its fittings should be fine. The one hose end of it that goes back toward the front of the engine and clamps on, looks like that molded hose increases in size after the 90 degree bend from 5/8" to close to 3/4" ID where coolant leaves the engine to go toward the main and aux heater cores.

I haven't found the OEM assembly for the returns from the heater cores, so that one I will have to assemble. It looks like the OEM one again has 2 quick disconnect female fittings that expect a 5/8" metal tube connection. The one end that gets clamped where it returns to the engine looks like it actually remains 5/8". So, I should be able to use all 5/8" with a 3 x 5/8" tee and 2 x quick disconnects that are 5/8" on both the tube and hose ends. I think O'Reilly said they could actually get the 5/8" Gates Green Stripe heater hose in a day, just not the 3/4" (which I don't think I need). It would be great if I could get one piece of it in a 90 degree and ideally with a tip that has another slight turn back and down, but that isn't likely unless it happens to be one of the pre-molded hoses they sell.

Good news is getting to the spark plugs on the passenger side should be a breeze now with all that out of the way. I also bought new Motorcraft idlers and tensioner for the belt along with a new belt.